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  #1  
Old 19-10-2008, 19:14
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Default I've been musing.. "Going back on Plan" once on maintenance?

Hi all,

Over the last few weeks, having read in MANY diaries, it seems to me that (once you have done refeed) maintaining your way to weightloss makes sense. Let me expand:-

I read often where people finish the plan, do their refeed, then step into Maintenance..... and then the wheels fall off (for one reason or another) !!! So they get back "on plan" to lose the weight - but wait......

From what I read, MOST weight gains are "retained fluid" - yes?
and, in other places, I read that it takes (what was it?) 10,000 calories to add a Kg - have I got it right? So, given that 10,000 calories is about FIVE DAYS worth of "Maintenance Food" in one day, you'd really have to be "chowing down big-time" to add a Kg of TRUE weight (as opposed to "water weight").


Hmm - so then, if MOST weight gained is "water weight", is it sensible to go back on the original plan to lose this extra? Won't you be STARVING YOURSELF to do that (as the REAL fat is no more.....) ??

I recall someone (Shell, I'm pretty sure) saying she needed to eat MORE to lose weight once on Maintenance (check her diary). That's because the bodies "excess reserves of fat" are already GONE !! And eating as though you are a sparrow has the body trying to STORE extra, as it is feeling starved !! Thus you don't LOSE weight as quickly.


I'd be interested to read of others' thoughts on this - you know me (i.e. I don't know your path except by reading....) but it sort of makes sense to me.


So, in essence, is "going back on plan" the right way to tackle YOUR situation? In some circumstances, I'm sure it IS (like, if you never got down to goal weight before, or your whole situation changed - e.g. had another baby, had sickness leading to weight gain, etc).

But, for those that simply "added a few Kgs" and wanted to trim them off again, is there a better way?

And (for my interest) are you finding you are starving when going back onto Plan?



Koh
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  #2  
Old 19-10-2008, 19:36
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Makes sense to me, Koh, but I'm not there yet. A kilo is about 8000 calories in excess of normal requirements, and normal requirements are about 1800-2000 calories a day for most. We are told that if we splurge on one day we should cut out carbs for the next two days, which I would think would be all that would be required to remove any weight gain. A big gain after a day or a weekend has to be mainly fluid, and should drop away quickly with normal eating and no carbs. It should be necessary to go back on the diet only if there's been a gradual gain over a period of time, which would inidcate that it's new fat rather than simply fluid.

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Old 19-10-2008, 19:55
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Great post Koh,
It will be interesting to hear people's opinion.

About 7700 calories to a kilo of fat.

I have not gone back on "plan" at all, the majority of what I eat is Cohen's foods and I am finding I am eating more than I did before starting Cohen's, but it is much healthier, whole foods.

Koh is right about not eating enough calories, and what your body does.

So I am wondering also if going back on/off plan is a good idea?

Shell
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Old 19-10-2008, 23:03
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Shell, I do just about the same thing. I tend to eat good food if possible (e.g., sensible choices) but I will have Pizza, KFC or UFO's & pastries when we have office parties for lunch. I tend to eat Cohen oriented meals the rest of the times. I don't, and haven't since the day I finished refeed, weigh anything. I have omelets for breakfast occasionally with ham & cheese and lunches normally comprise salads with tuna or chicken and sometimes upward of 2 or even three diced up fruits in the salad. Dinner often has me with baked Tater and my anzacs are normally 3x3 or 3x4 times a day and if I know I'm going to be eating non-friendly foods, I just cut back on them. I still eat between 3 and 5 fruits a day and like the anzacs, will cut back if I know I'm going to go out to eat. I fluctuate between a 2.5 range of 2kg below target to .5 kg above target over the course of a normal week. I find that as long as I follow "good guidelines" then I've got no worries.
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  #5  
Old 19-10-2008, 23:21
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G'Day

I have maintained my excel spreadsheet on and off since completing the programin June, 2006

One weekend, I even bought trays of cakes from The Blue Rabbit and ate them all, and didn't put on any weight!

The time I started to increase weight was when I went to Sydney for a week for Corporate Induction in March when I took on the franchise.

From there on, it was a very slow but very steady increase

(a) I continued with yoghurt and kiwi for breakfast
(b) I took a prepared salad most days
(c) I took a prepared apple and crispbread for eating on the drive home and made sure I drank a 500 ml bottle of water each way
(d) I started to eat peppermints again while driving
(e) I started to have cappuccino and latte coffees about four times each week
(f) I was under mega stress, working 16 hour days, hiring, training, dealing with customers (good) and corporate demands (not good), what was I thinking!
(g) I was drinking less water, sleeping less than 5 hours per night, eating at very long intervals between meals

So from June, 2006 to March, 2007 I ate what I wanted. However, what I wanted was quite different to what I would have eaten previously

From March, 2007 onwards I didn't appear to be eating any differently, but obviously I was, and drinking far too little water

Was it food that put weight on me? Actually, I don't think so. I think that we can underestimate the affect of stress

We cannot avoid all stress, but what I experienced between March, 2007 and March, 2008 was enough stress to stun a horse.

No wonder I abandoned all pretences while in UK, but look what happened - nearly 8 kilos in just under 5 months.

However, I knew then what I know now:

After refeed, read the Maintenance Guidelines every week. Be alert but not alarmed. Eat well, but eat sensibly. Drink occasionally, eat chocolate sparingly (but do eat it), laugh and be happy

Nothing tastes as good as being slim feels.

Once we have been obese, being slim is an abolute miracle. Maintenance is easy - just don't go and start up a franchise business!!!

Cheers
Kristine
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Old 20-10-2008, 14:05
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Very interesting thoughts and observations Koh!! Definitely worth remembering for when I get to that time.

Thanks also Kristine, your experiences are very helpful too. I would have to agree with you about the stress, as I know I gained most of my weight due to stress and not managing it well, that together with terrible eating behaviours and the wrong foods, well....

It's thanks to all of you who post your experiences and observations that helps us so enormously, so a very big THANK YOU!!!

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Old 20-10-2008, 15:38
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I'd like to add my thanks to Vee's Recently in an effort to bolster my positivity, I've been thinking forward to maintenance. I've read where some people find that if the scales tip up for a while, they do revert back to the plan for a few weeks and get it all back in order. I had been thinking that would be my plan of attack also... but your post REALLY makes sense!

Thanks to those of you who are on maintenance and have explained how it works for you I'm sure if I can stick somewhere along the lines of the old 80/20 rule (being good 80% of the time, and allowing myself to be a bit norty 20% of the time, or thereabouts)... and be sure to keep a check on my weight if it starts to creep up... I should be able to FINALLY stablise at a healthy weight for life.

This thread has really made me re-think how I will handle my personal maintenance. Rather than revert to plan, I think I will follow what's been said and concentrate on good, healthy, whole foods and just cut back on the indulgences if I need to trim off some excess in the future. I guess with our bodies working how they should (thanks to Dr Cohen!), they should respond well to a gentle nudge in the right direction in future?
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Old 23-10-2008, 09:33
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Back again with another thought.

I have been playing with my calorie intake for a couple of months or so now.
My maintenance calories are about 2100 with the exercise I do.

Before I had done a bit of reasearch on the net I was trying to stick to 1200 calories a day -900 calories (I worked out-not enough food)

Was losing a bit of weight but not what I expected, my body must have thought I was starving it!

Now I have upped the calories per day to usually around 1400, and I am loosing more weight & more regulary.

I have also just started cycling calories and having one day a week of near maintenace calories (which is A LOT of food if you keep it clean!)

So for instance one day I will have 1400 calories, next 2000 calories, next 1300 calories, next 1600 calories etc, next 1100.

Apparently if you do this your body is less likely to plateau because it doesn't know how many calories it is getting from one day to the next.

Will report back in a week to see how it goes (10 days in) -not drinking until next weekend and the drinking mucks up my experiment!

Shell
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  #9  
Old 23-10-2008, 12:41
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Hey Shell,

What a good thought !!!
Quote:
So for instance one day I will have 1400 calories, next 2000 calories, next 1300 calories, next 1600 calories etc, next 1100.

Apparently if you do this your body is less likely to plateau because it doesn't know how many calories it is getting from one day to the next.
I've never counted calories, but I eat different meals, and differing amounts daily - so that's probably what I'm doing anyway.... and have always done.

I'm very interested to see how that pans out for you,

Koh
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And me? I'm a tall skinny bloke (BMI ~23) and have been this way forever, so I haven't faced (weight-wise) what you all have !!
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Old 23-10-2008, 12:49
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Shell,

I think you read my mind. I was feeling a bit dizzy today so I put my food into the calorieking diary for yesterday to see where I was. After the exercise was added in my net calories for yesterday were 189

I have been having a bit of trouble regulating myself since returning from the USA and I think it's partly due to the exercise dropping my calories too low. Reset does not work for me if I don't eat enough, it has taken me 3 days of reset so far to drop 1kg and I am still 600g above where I like to sit. So I have tried to have a net calories of 1200 for today.

On another note, years ago when I was on Weight watchers and it wasn't working that was suggested to me as a solution, have more one day and less the next, I hope it works. I tend to do that a lot anyway without planning on it, life just makes me eat differently day to day LOL.

Connie
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Old 23-10-2008, 14:21
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I think 189 must be a typo Connie?
Does sound like you need to eat more.
Try and I am sure you will be amazed!

Koh, I will definatly keep you updated.
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Old 23-10-2008, 14:28
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nope Shell,

Put myself back on close to plan quantities yesterday to see if it helped any, after a step class and a run I was on 189 calories for the day (net calories).
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Old 23-10-2008, 16:38
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OMG!
I am having a snack at the moment with more calories than that!!
What did (didn't)you eat to be so low?
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Old 14-11-2010, 14:39
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

Worthy of a bump.... ???
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And me? I'm a tall skinny bloke (BMI ~23) and have been this way forever, so I haven't faced (weight-wise) what you all have !!
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Old 14-11-2010, 16:31
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

What a wonderful thread! I have just logged on for the first time in ages.

I have not long been in maintanence and a week-end away and a couple of weeks of having too many sweets and alcohol I was 5kg up. I rang my clinic and quizzed them on which way to handle it... go back on plan or the 48hr no carb rule. She advised go back on plan... Holy Bejeezus didn't recall the portions being so small. LOL
I dropped 2 kg overnite another 1.5kg approx over the next 2 days. This is my 4th day back on plan... a bit hungry here and there but nothing I can't handle.
My body stores fluid fast when I have been naughty with my eating... great to know it also drops the fluid quickly too.
I will probably stick to plan for another few days and see if I drop another couple of Kgs if I stall or get too hungry add some extra good food.
I just feel so much better on the diet as I can feel the insulin spike after eating sugary foods and get really tired and start to crave all the wrong food. So at least now I know what is happening to me
This is certainly a very educating experience and no doubt I'll be keeping a close eye on the scales... Thanks Dr Cohen
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Old 24-11-2010, 22:12
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

I was looking for somewhere to post something and this seems like the likely spot.

I am seeing a few maintainers at the same stage as me struggling a little with food choices. Some are doing stints back on plan to get a buffer or rein in excesses.

Here are my thoughts on this.

Plan was to lose the initial weight.

Maintenance is about a new lifestyle and making mostly good food choices. The plan quantities are not designed for slim people to stay slim but for overweight and obese people to get slim.

In maintenance we should be regularly exercising for weight control and for our own health (I don't want osteoporosis thanks!). We know that plan quantities are not enough if you are exercising.

So going back on plan if you are exercising is effectively starving yourself - which we all know by now will make us GAIN weight.

I keep my weight within 3 kg of my maintenance finish weight and I have not and do not plan to go back onto plan quantities. I do too much exercise now for it to be feasible and I also don't want to go back there - it is almost like a safety net that is just too easy (it's ok, I can have that and that and then that because, well, I have the plan to fall back on) that would be dangerous for me.

So I use reset. I try to make good food choices and limit my carbs. I have chocolate from time to time. I drink wine. But most days I try to stick to minimal carbs (because they are my trigger food) and certainly after a day of not so great food, I stick to crackers as my only carbs.

I have found I can control my weight within my 3kg range this way. It creeps over sometimes if I have too many days in a row of not good choices, but I then rein it in before it becomes a blow out and I don't need to go back on plan.

Another comment that came to mind as I read diaries is that I find I am most likely to be tempted to make bad food choices if I am hungry or have not eaten recently. If I am tempted to make a bad food choice (today I was contemplating twisties as I drove home) I make myself instead go and make something delicious but maintenance friendly. If after eating that I still have the urge, let's reassess. But I make sure first that any hunger or potential hunger issues are taken care of so that if I am then going to choose a food that is not a good choice, it is a conscious choice, not driven by hunger.

I now have my three main meals each day but in between I have cheese, tomato and crackers. The crackers alone weren't enough to keep me going. The protein in the cheese keeps me steaming along and stops me being hungry (I notice hunger if I don't have them) and the tomato and fresh basil makes it so yummy that why would I want to out a bag of fried carbs covered in MSG with 100 numbers written on the packet into my body???

In summary - for me the key to maintenance is making sure you eat ENOUGH and that MOST of the time you make good food CHOICES. when you don't reset first, before dropping your protein intake basically in half... You may not need to and may be creating a problem for yourself...

Just my thoughts.....
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Old 25-11-2010, 08:50
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

Thinking overnight I would add to this somethin my consultant told me - if reset doesn't do enough, you will lose weight eating just plan FOOD without using plan quantities.

So for me:
First step: reset
Second step: plan food but quantities based on maintenance not plan
Third step: if the above fail (unlikely if you catch it early) plan with weighed quantities....

I think we risk get caught up in trying to find a buffer that we risk yoyo dieting if we keep going on and off plan.....We need to learn to eat well most of the time....
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Old 25-11-2010, 10:57
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

or the LB approach - speak softly and carry a big stick
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Old 25-11-2010, 11:20
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

thanks Jlou - a fantastic post! I'll be printing this one out. I realize for me, keeping on making bad food choices after I've already made some, is a emotional problem that I need to think about - why i feel that way.
A question "Third step: if the above fail (unlikely if you catch it early) plan with weighed quantities...." is this plan or refeed? (sorry if it's a dumb question - not thinking to straight at the moment)
I appreciate you thinking this though and sharing it - it helps so much! I have a fair bit of soul searching to do, and this will help me get it right
Lesley
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Old 25-11-2010, 11:27
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Default Re: I've been musing.... tell me what YOU think !!

Hey NGU
I think plan Quantities should be a last resort... Try refeed quantities first then if that doesn't work, back on plan... I just don't think it should be there as a 'normal' part of our eating habits - it is a last resort because if you use plan it is like going on a DIET again - as opposed to having a healthy lifestyle with mostly good choices then reining it in if you need to
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