COVID19 thoughts

[Kohinoor]

Hi all,
We've all done pretty well here in Australia and NZ - I do think we both have a major advantage being island nations, making it easier to close our borders.

I'm a bit mixed about this whole "isolation" thing. I see some benefits as we all slow down and think more of "family things" and even re-learn how to live together. I also think the keeping our distance (just 1.5 metres) is not a bad thing either - especially while we learn more about this virus and a possible vaccine. But just how far should we go with the "shutting down of things - beaches, non-essential businesses, gatherings of groups larger than two, don't sit on park benches (even with no-one else around???), etc.

This whole issue around shutting down our economies is worth a second look. I heard this morning that, if we measure "deaths vs economical damage" the figure looks like this:-

For every death, we have 10,000 people out of work. ( x 1000)

If our leaders knew that would be how things would work out, would they have chosen to shut down the whole joint in the first place? And, now that they do know, does it make sense to continue to isolate everyone and risk even further economic damage? Hmmmm.....


Further to that, it seems many die WITH Covid, but do all of these die OF Covid? Are these all counted as Covid deaths anyway? Like, was it Covid that brought on their deaths, or were they about to die anyway? The largest percentage of deaths ARE in the over 70's age group.


Should we be following the Sweden model instead - keep your distance (1.5m) but business pretty much as usual. They have some milder restrictions, but aren't shutting down the whole joint as we are. And their death rate is not much more than our own. Edited later - I was quite wrong about that last comment - the graph I had looked at was a Logarhythmic scale that shows 10,000 as just double the height of 1000 - and 100,000 is just triple the height of 1000 - as such, a country higher up the scale is really WAY higher than it first seems when using this scale. And with further knowledge (using deaths per million people of population) it shows Sweden has one of the highest scores of all. Still, they took the path of keeping their economy alive but this has been at a high cost in deaths within the community. So, let me backtrack - let's not go Sweden's way.

One thing that is galling me is where businesses take their own advice, ignoring recommendations from the Govts - one case in particular is that of "Rest homes" where we have old friends who are almost imprisoned by their care providers. i.e. The management allow NO visitors, not even family. The Govt (Australia) say "Allow 2 visits per day, with no more than 2 visitors at one time".

My thoughts are - older folk need daily interaction so they don't feel forgotten. And via phone calls we learn from one friend that "even the staff don't stay long - just in and out again". So our old friends feel quite isolated. Even phone calls are a poor substitute for "sitting face-to-face". And not just older folk anyway - we are all gregarious !!

With our Covid figures looking pretty good (i.e. we HAVE flattened the curve) isn't it high time we RELAXED our guard somewhat and allowed more latitude? Let's have BBQ's again with a few friends. Even risk allowing most/all businesses to re-open? Maybe remain with closed borders until we have better/faster screening of incoming visitors - but do look to opening them up too, in the not-too-distant future.

What do YOU think? Isn't it time to get back to more normal living?

Koh

[Kohinoor]

Hi again,
Here we are a couple of weeks on, and there are signs (in Qld at least) of more normal activities coming up. I look forward to more of these.

Last weekend we were allowed to "travel up to 50Km to have a picnic or a day at the beach" as well as some relaxing of family meetings. Another week from now, and the plan is to allow smaller restaurants to open, along with coffee bars, etc. but with limited numbers per establishment and/or family groups (up to 10 people now, instead of 2). We're still to hear final details, but there is hope of a "more normal life" sputtering back into being !

Apparently each step is in the control of individual State Govts - Fed Govt recommendations are nothing more than encouragement and are often ignored. I guess it is a tough gig to allow a bit of relaxation of these strict measures, only to find Covid cases screaming up again, then perhaps having to "go back a step". So their reticence is understandable. I hope that this all doesn't become a "race between states to be back to normal the quickest" by taking more risks than we should !! Softly, softly methinks.

Time will tell. Stay safe all,
Koh

[Winterboots]

Hi Kohinoor,
Long time since I visited and posted but I hear what you are saying!!

Nz has done well but we are now locking down the country for 4 people - would it not be economically better to pay for those vulable people to stay at home as well as get the elderly protected but let everyone else weather the storm - the likely hood of dying is very small.

I really hate the way we are being brain washed about this so call deadly disease (death rate is quite low compared to other virus's) - the conspiracy part of me sees this as the government trying to control us.

Do you still have your holiday home in Springbrook - it has such special happy memories for our family and we often talk about the happy time we spent there.

Take care
Winterboots

[Kohinoor]

Hi Winterboots,
Good to hear from you. Yes, I agree that some decisions being made could perhaps be reconsidered. One early statistic I heard indicated that Australia had 10,000 out of work for each death we suffered. Knowing that, is keeping things locked down the best way to go?

Considering too that many folks are in a bad way BECAUSE of the isolation. A combination of businesses failing, or folks just not being allowed to go to work, some suffering depression because of the bleak outlike, suicides becoming more rampant, domestic violence on the increase (with families often locked in with an abuser), etc. There are so many things more than just "Covid cases" that could do with airing.

I heard State Govts seeming to listen only to health advisers, with little thought given to "the other dramas going on". Our own state (Qld) seems almost hellbent on having NO Covid cases - but killing the tourism industry while they lock down. Is it the right way to go? For sure, we have kept generally free of Covid - but is that enough? Don't other affected individuals need a hearing?


Unfortunately we had to sell our Springbrook place. Cyclone Betty started it in 2017 - she closed the only two roads up the mountain - and the most optimal road then remained closed for a further 18 months. We lost several bookings over that and found we needed to sell. Fortunately someone who lived there was wanting a nice home and we got a good price for it. We consider ourselves blessed as Springbrook was badly "hit" for the 18 months of road closure.

Families on the mountain had to drop their high-school kids down to Mudgeeraba the LONG way then drive back to open their business, and repeat after school closed - adding 2 hours extra travel per day for those 18 months. Awful - hopefully their businesses are coming back again now with the road all fixed again.

Stay safe WB,
Hugs,
Koh

[ash_fitness365]

I think we all are probably gonna die. That's the way things these days as many peoples are dying every single day.

[Kohinoor]

Well, after Jan 2023, I wasn't able to post, or read anything, but now that I can once more, let me share something else about the handling of Covid that frankly blew me away.

I had posted this on another forum, but the thoughts are valid for any future pandemics, so let's share it:

https://www.afr.com/policy/health-an...0210804-p58fxc ? This is now a Subscriber only article of the Fin Review. But you'll still see the headline and a paragraph or two...

Someone in Govt (a Senator) is finally taking a hard-nosed look at the "numbers" re how much we are spending/losing while endeavouring to save Covid lives. I'd always thought Govts should be considering all sides to an economy, not just the "Covid cost". e.g. lockdowns produce very serious health risks to so many people - especially to those businesses who are trying to keep their heads above water. Lockdown after lockdown is beating many of them senseless.

And now (in the link above) a dollar value has been ascribed to the saving of a life, and it is $330 million per life saved !!!!!!!!

Can we really afford this? The Senator makes the statement that we as a nation "can't afford the same healthcare facilities in the bush as in a big city - it is a fact of life". As per the start of this paragraph, can we really afford to pay $330m to save each Covid life? And meanwhile, what other lives suffer, and how dreadfully? How about the single mum who is having to sleep with her family in their car because her work stopped and they can't afford now to rent a house? How about the business owner who might be "going down for the third time" with yet ANOTHER lockdown that siphons income away from his business? Anxiety and depression must be having a field day in the midst of all this. What cost to those held in the grasp of THOSE "pandemics"? Is anyone even counting?

We focus on Covid (or any future pandemic virus) to the exclusion of all else at our peril.

Koh

PS of interest perhaps is the value of a human life according to the Govt. Check this out:-
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/...u-re-worth#mtr but you'll have to subscribe to read it, or read my summation below instead:-

Apparently, we are worth $4.5m or, in another measure, $195k per annum if we needed that amount spent on us. So you can see that $330m to save one life is pretty steep eh?

[richard35847]

You raise an important point. During any major crisis, it's easy for governments to focus on a single threat and overlook the wider economic, social, and mental health consequences of their decisions.

Looking back, I think one of the biggest lessons from COVID is that policymakers need to weigh both the direct health impacts and the indirect costs on families, businesses, education, and overall wellbeing. Finding that balance is never easy, but it is essential.

I'm Richard from South Africa, and it's interesting to read perspectives from different countries on how the pandemic was handled. I recently started participating in a few online communities and sharing some thoughts on current affairs and related topics on my site as well. Always good to exchange ideas and learn from others.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Koh.

[richard35847]

And one thing we saw during and after the pandemic was the importance of social support alongside healthcare measures. Many people lost jobs or saw their incomes reduced significantly. The government expanded social assistance programmes, including SASSA grants https://sassasrdstatuscheckdates.co.za/, to help vulnerable households cope during difficult periods.

Of course, there is always a debate about the cost of these interventions and whether resources are being used effectively. But I think governments have to consider both sides of the equation: protecting lives while also protecting livelihoods. The economic and mental health impacts of lockdowns were very real, especially for small businesses and lower-income families.

The challenge for future pandemics will be finding a better balance between public health measures, economic stability, and social support. There are lessons to be learned from every country, including South Africa.

[Kohinoor]

Hi Richard,
I realised early on that a Govt. facing such a problem was struggling to "find its feet" as a new threat entered our lives. So I cut them a bit of slack in those early days. But it soon became apparent that some rules were just plain nonsense... e.g. we weren't allowed to go sit in a park and get fresh air, or have a picnic. We could be arrested for such temerity !!

Some states in Australia went totally nuts with their "rules" - my own (Queensland) being one of them. e.g. those who were visiting relatives in other states when the Covid rules were invoked, were not allowed to return home. And in other cases, folks from a neighbouring state could not use a hospital close to them (and had used previously) because it was a Queensland hospital and they weren't one of us!!! A daughter could not attend her father's funeral because she came from another state. Certainly, compassion took a back seat over this time.

I heard too that Covid death counts were over-stated - e.g. someone dying in a road accident where they were crushed to death would have 1 added to the Covid count if their corpse was tested and found to have Covid. Totally weird happenings over this whole time.

In those early days too, I recall the Spanish Flu from around 1920 when millions died was used as a portent of "things to come". Projections of 100's of millions of deaths were modelled for Covid, so it really was a time of great concern, leading to a vast over-reaction from all governing bodies.

Though still getting a mention now and then in 2026, certainly the hype has died down significantly re Covid, thank heaven.

Anyway Richard, it is good to hear another's perspective on all things - welcome aboard and I hope we cross paths elsewhere in the forums.

Koh