Just wondering! What is going back to Normal?

[polka_dots]

hey guys, im just wondering for people who have finished there program if any of you have gone back to your old way of eating and havnt put any weight back on..

[shell]

Hi Polka dots,

I pretty much still eat all the Cohen's food plus a bit extra, I have kept not eating the foods with preservatives in them when I can-which is most of the time.
So basicly all natural whole foods.

I don't think you can go back to eating the way you did, because obviously it wasn't working before - that's why we had weigh problems!
Shell

[ConnieK..]

As everyone here has said at least once .........

If you always do what you have always done ........... you will always get what you always got!

I agree with what Shell said ... we are broken..... that's why we are here and we need to look at food in a new way ... not a bad way ... just a new way.

Connie

PS. The definition of madness is repeating a behaviour and expecting a different result.

[ropemaha]

hehehe...connie

its not insanity mate, its madness....lol...

[ConnieK..]

Well... It's all a matter of thinking pen I will edit it geez I need you to proofread all my posts lately LOL

Originally Posted by ropemaha

hehehe...connie

its not insanity mate, its madness....lol...

[polka_dots]

yeah i understand that all, but i have soooooooo many years to go, i hate looking twice at what im about to eat. no actually.. im sorry THIS IS GOOD! lol i love when i prove myself wrong while im typing!

thanks guys!

[Annabelle Joy]

Polka_dots, when you get to maintenance you get a set of maintenance guidelines. You will be able to eat anything you like, but only occasionally. So when you go out for a meal, you can eat whatever everyone else is eating. However, if you have a hectic social life and eat out nearly every night, or if you are used to picking up some takeaway several nights a week, you probably won't be able to do that.

This diet promised to get our hormones under control, and that we would never need to diet again. As the others have said, our hormones are damaged. The diet does get them under control, and the maintenance guidelines keep them under control. However, the diet does not work miracles, and we will need to be careful about what we eat for the rest of our lives. In effect, we have an illness, or an allergy, that means we need to be careful about what we eat. It's a bit like having diabetes, celiac disease or being lactose intolerant. If you had any of those you would have to watch what you ate. You have obesity syndrome, and carbohydrates upset your hormones. You will need to limit your intake of carbs for the rest of your life.

AJ

[hexi2]

My automatic response..


GET REAL BANANA PEEL!

Life will never be the same again...unless of course you want the same result...FAT!

[Faithy]

LOL..

Well I have this syndrome.. I get what I call my carb baby whenever I eat carbs.. the problem is that carb baby grows & grows until it takes over my whole entire body.. it grows & grows until one day I'm going to go POP!!!!!!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Interesting.

I've been reading the other active maintenance diaries a bit and with a few exceptions, the results are the same. Carb & Sugar binges resulting in rapid and large weight fluctuation and a creeping up in weight as a result (okay, in some instances, not creeping but enormous overnight gains).

Now I know I'm not all that different than anybody else here but I'm having a hard time getting my head around why this is happening to everybody else but not to me. (no I'm not jealous - just curious )

Sooooo, sitting here mulling it over, it seemed initially that maybe it was weight related - those with more to lose have a harder time afterward? Or is it an emotional related problem as a number have found out after using external assistance to find out. It would seem to me that everybody is "in a rush" to go back to old ways even though they know that the "old way" got them into this condition in the first place. You don't have to put you hand into the flame to know it will burn you - people have already done it and proved it.

What's the rush? There's a lot of years left and the necessity of returning to bad habits doesn't make sense. This is especially true when we have all been given the instructions on how to successfully negotiate our way into maintenance and a "New You" with a "New Lifestyle".

Where you all happy with your old lifestyle? If so, why did you go on Cohen's? If you were not happy, why do you want to return there? Was it comfortable? I doubt it from reading these threads. This is what I'm having problems with. I think that the best thing is getting professional help at the first sign of not being able to control this desire to self-destruct. I realize that I didn't have an emotional sort of problem that caused my weight gain but I am finding it very disconcerting that most on here are finding huge problems post-refeed. What is it that allows you to say no during the program without too much effort but causes you not to be able to say no without the program?

Just thinking out loud here...........

[shell]

Great post SMS,
I think that is what we are trying to work out-why we struggle.?
Quite a few of us are seeking professional help.

For many of us, we are breaking many, many years of bad habits- which will take some time.

I know for myself, that I have come too far in getting healthy, to put it back on again- so I am getting help.

If it were easy to slip into maintenance after being on the plan, we wouldn't have needed the plan to begin with i think.
I also believe that hormones have a bit to do with how we (women) cope as well.

I am eating 100% more healthy than I was before the program, but I am still struggling with some "mind" issues, which I am in the process of getting sorted out.

I will be interested to hear other peoples comments/opinions about this topic as well.

Shell

[Annabelle Joy]

SMS, like you I have been watching the struggles many are having post diet. I have some other observations to make.
1) Many (probably most) on the forum have obesity syndrome. Our bodies do not handle carbohydrates well, and eating them creates cravings for more. I expect that most on the forum used to eat too much carbohydrate across the day, and many ate high carb snacks between meals as well. You (SMS) may not have the syndrome as your pre-Cohen eating was not like that. I think it is obesity syndrome that causes the problems on maintenance.
2) I can think of a number of maintenance people who are not having problems and have gone on with their lives. Because they are not having problems, they have no need for the forum. This tends to present a biased view of maintenance problems.
3) As you stated, we need to change our pre-Cohen eating habits. The diet itself does not help with that. As someone said a while back, the diet's like going back to childhood. You eat at a certain time whether you are hungry or not, and you must eat everything on your plate; not great for developing good eating habits. Post diet everyone has to work out for themselves what and how much they can eat each day if they are to remain at a constant weight. Some manage to do this faster than others. Good eating habits like leaving food on the plate, eating slowly, stopping when you are full, etc. still have to be learned.
4) Some people start stressing about coping and small weight gains as soon as they get to maintenance. Stress adds to weight gains, so they stress more. When they're more relaxed about their eating they cope much better, and the weight tends to stabilise.
5) The carbs are the killer. It doesn't take too many and the hormones of those with obesity syndrome are once again unable to function correctly. Once that happens, the old cravings and urges to eat even when the stomach is full reappear. It takes a lot of willpower over a few days to overcome that. If it was easy to do, none of us would be here in the first place. From what I've read, I think that some have a much lower threshold than others when it comes to disrupting insulin levels.

I'm not up to maintenance, so I don't have the guidelines. However, I have a couple of suggestions that I wouldn't expect to conflict with Dr Cohen's guidelines.
1) Start out on maintenance with low GI foods. Test your tolerance for the higher GI foods by only having small quantities occasionally at first. As a normal rule, avoid high GI foods for everyday living. If you are looking for menu ideas and recipes, books such as the Atkins diet books, the South Beach Diet, the CSIRO diet, and probably a lot of others are based on low GI eating (but remember still to follow Dr Cohen's guidelines).
2) Eat healthy food -- low fat, low carb, fresh vegetables, protein, etc. just like you did on the diet. Read the Physical Changes thread if you need convincing of the effectiveness of this type of food.
3) Follow a high carb meal with exercise whenever possible. The carbs send the insulin up, the exercise brings it right back down. So finish the meal and go for a walk, or dance the night away.
4) Concentrate on learning good eating habits. Chew slowly, always leave food on the plate, never overload your plate (throw the rest away if necessary), eat at regular intervals and at the table, follow Cohen guidelines, etc.
5) As SMS said, get professional help as soon as you see you aren't coping. In addition to a psychologist, consider a dietitian.
6) Most of us have a disease. Obesity syndrome is a recognised medical problem. If you develop diabetes, celiac disease, lactose intolerance, an allergy to nuts, high cholesterol, or any of the other problems that are aggrevated by food you will try to cut that out of your diet won't you? You need to cut out carbs, particularly the high GI carbs.
7) Consider buying one of the insulin monitoring devices that diabetics have and use it to monitor your insulin levels and learn how different foods affect them.
8 ) Try not to stress about it.

AJ

[sundaymorningstaple]

AJ,

I'll take your oservations by the numbers.....

1). You comment ties in to my initial thoughts about those with the larger weights having been lost seem to be the ones with the most problems. Most with over 40kg "would" have been diagnosed with "Morbid" Obesity so that may be some validation of my thoughs along those lines.

2). I though that as well. Most of those who are sticking around after the program need help or the mutual support group. Otherwise I'm sure that they really have better things to do. I'm sticking around to just help wherever I can as I've been doing these kinds of things (moderating/Admin) for a couple of years already and actually enjoy it. Also, I feel that maybe if I can help one other person, it's worth it. Paying it forward I believe it's called......

3). This one I have a bit of problem with. Cohen does retrain you how to eat. And, especially after 9 to 12 months on this program, the conditioning should be sufficient to NOT warrent jumping in over you head as soon as they open the gates. This is where I have the biggest problem understanding where it's coming from. What is wrong with regimented eating? Refeeding shows you that you can got further than that without gaining so the program does give you all the tools. And here is where I have the biggest problem as to why DO they have to jump in the deep end immediately after finishing the program? Why can't they continue to ease into it like they did at refeed (without apparent problems). I understand the carb & sugar syndrome and I understand the obesity syndrome but if it didn't happen on refeed, it shouldn't happen post-cohen either. People should take baby steps, tenative steps and not trying everything out at once like it's the last supper. When they have chocolate the first time, most dark chocolate is 2 squares + 50g. Where is it written that they must have 50g? When I first tried it, it was a single square (1 square equaled 23.8g according to the wrapper). If they have a drink, why can't they have 1 to start with. Why can't they see how their body handles it before trying chocolate, champers, crisps, and lord knows what the first time they are let off the leash all in one evening. I can't believe the obesity syndrome is reactivated because the program said refeed was over.

4). Stressing over small gains? I have a hard time with that one as most here (women moreso than men) have the gain problem every month. And often it's larger than small. Again, I've got a bit of a problem understanding here as if they follow 3). Then it's a simple matter to leave it out the next day and see what happens. If they work it like they were doing on the end of refeed then they would have no problems......

5). The carbs are the things that are also reintroduced during the refeeding process. One would already have an idea how the increased carbs would affect you during the refeeding process. Hence the two day backtrack if you gain more than 1 kg overnight. Once it happens 2x in a row, you are finished. And you also know about what you can handle carb wise without gaining. The refeed is more than a few days it's a few weeks and it was designed to let one see the effect of adding back in the bad foods and how they will affect that person. The tools are all there....... It just seems that people think that they don't have to follow the rules or use the tools. Tired? Maybe. Solution? Professional help certainly, especially if they know in their hearts that they cannot battle the inner demon by themselves. (I personally think it's more inner emotional things rather than the obesity syndrome - otherwise it would have shown up during refeed).

Your suggestions for living afterward are pretty good. But unnessary if one follows what has been given to you by the Doctor. However, it is still good but its also something that takes too much thought from day to day. It's much easier to change one's lifestyle rather than keep trying ways to circumvent the problems. Following all of those other guidelines may well get someone in trouble say if they are on holiday and cannot find any of the "special" foods. To me, it makes more practical sense to figure out what I can have and what I can't have in order to remain healthy. Course, I've had lots of practice having been a gout sufferer for 28 years or so. I altered my diet many, many years ago, eliminating the majority of foods that tend to aggrivate the production of uric acid. Sure it was as bummer, but not being able to walk was a BIGGER bummer. This is what we need to do here and stick to it.

Anyway, I'd like to see what other's have to say as well. Who knows, we might trigger something just by thinking out loud.......

[Annabelle Joy]

SMS, seems we're in complete agreement on points 1 and 2. I also think it's likely that the more obese a person is the greater their level of insulin resistance. I'm a believer in pay forward too.

I'm still to face maintenance, so maybe I'll have problems too. However, I agree with what you've said on point 3. It's certainly my intention to be very careful with carbs when I first am in a position to have as much as I want. Maybe others just don't realise how deadly the effect can be.

Point 4 I put it because that seems to be what's happening. I have noted that several seem to be very apprehensive of maintenance and essentially being on their own, and really were stressing over minor fluctuations. I think it's the apprehension of not being able to control the new situation rather than the actual gain.

Number 5 I am basing on my own experience. I can eat a big, high carb meal with little long term effect. I get into trouble when I eat carbs that are not normally part of my diet regularly over several days. So, for me, one or two days is okay, four or five is not. I will need to see how I cope with refeed on this one. I wouldn't expect everyone to be the same as me.

Yes, I can see your point re my thoughts on living afterwards. I still do think that it's necessary to work on good habits to avoid going back to the old habits. I do not think that weighing every item of food and eating only from a restricted list is enough to ensure good post maintenance habits.

There is one difference between us. You're looking at this from the point of view of one who is coping and wondering why others are having difficulties. I'm looking as one who is approaching maintenance and wondering if I will be able to handle it when I get there.

AJ

[Faithy]

I'm going to try to only comment on what happened to me & where I know I went wrong..

Firstly I did not make myself available to sit with a consultant & go through the guidleines.. I think if that's possible for the client then they by all means should do that..

Secondly the first day after refeed I went on a planned binge.. when I look back it wasn't too bad, but not once during that day did I follow the guidelines.. the next day I went up a mere 300gms & thought WOW.. I can do this again.. THAT is where I made my mistake.. If I had followed the guidlines & not had carbs that day & the next my weight wouldn't of jumped up & then continue to creep..

It's not recommended that we weigh our food post refeed & when I really think about it there is no way I would eat day in & out the amount of food listed on the last few days of refeed so I personally know the approx amounts of food my body can handle.. after all, isn't that the idea of refeed anyway, to judge an idea of the approx amounts we can expect to be able to eat without putting on weight?!

No where in my maintenance guidleines does it say throw caution to the wind & chow down, which is what I did.. now I see the reason for that is as simple as my very first error & then the carb cravings set in & ultimately panic.. which in turn lead to old bad habbits creeping back & the good old emotions.. which I suppose was going to happen anyway?? I dont know.. but the feeling of panic & no control set in, which is how I felt pre cohens.

I'm not impressed with myself for this happening, but it's taught me a hell of a lot & the good thing is in seeking help I am making myself a better person for it & dealing with things that obviously had to be dealt with..


As for not many people around post maintenance.. I agree, those who have handled it well quite possibly have gotten on with their lives & I bet there are a few who are too ahasmed to say here that they are struggling, which is a shame.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Originally Posted by Faithy

As for not many people around post maintenance.. I agree, those who have handled it well quite possibly have gotten on with their lives & I bet there are a few who are too ahasmed to say here that they are struggling, which is a shame.

There is probably a lot of truth to that. So one really has to give credit to those who have come back to do the program again and tell us openly that they are doing so. Credit where credit's due. If they can get the support required from this forum, then we are successful and they are successful. Hopefully valuable lessons were learned.

We have all the tools needed at our disposal under normal circumstances. As you said yourself, the maintenance manual doesn't advise us to throw caution to the wind. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Annabelle Joy]

I suspect that there is some misunderstanding for many in what the end of refeed means. I read some publicity before I started that said something like "lose weight, get your hormones in balance and never have to diet again". People come onto the programme believing that they can finish the diet and go back to eating as they did before, their hormones will be balanced and they won't put on weight. I know that was the impression I had when I commenced, from what I had read, and I have seen several question if they will be able to do just that in their diaries, obviously having read the same thing. I just now looked for what I read originally, can't find it, but found this on the front page of the web site: "Dr Cohen believes being overweight is a result of a medical condition that can be effectively controlled by achieving metabolic equilibrium and changing your lifestyle". The underlining is mine. It's true, your hormones will be balanced and you won't ever have to diet again, but you will have to change your lifestyle to keep the hormones balanced.

It seems likely to me that SMS is right about those with more to lose initially having more problems, and it also seems likely that this probably equates to more serious insulin resistance. Even a small quantity of the wrong carb food may trigger a response that they can't control, whereas others can manage much more without any problems.

I still think there is a lot of work to be done post refeed and it takes continual monitoring and thought. I have yo-yo dieted for forty years. Most recently I have dieted and maintained for a period of time, then lost control again. Over the years I have read a lot and I have had counselling. I believe I now know how my body responds and how my head responds. I have put a lot of thought and analysis into my own situation. The old habits and responses built up over many years are still there waiting to be triggered and it takes a lot more work than several months plus three weeks to eradicate them, as I found after my last two maintenance periods went off the rails (not from Cohen's but I don't think the diet is the issue, it's the head space).

I don't mean this to sound negative. I believe that anyone getting to the end of the diet and onto refeed can learn to control their eating habits and maintain their weight. I am trying to make the point that in the early days, months and even years it will require effort, and constant vigilance, particularly when life gets stressful.

AJ

[shell]

Can we get this part of the thread put in the maintenance section, with an appropriate heading-where it will be more relavent & easier to find?

I think it is a great topic.

Shell

[sundaymorningstaple]

Good suggestion Shell. As you can see I have moved it. I have also elaborated slightly on the thread title to reflect more what the thread is about.

[Soon2BSlim]

Great Thread!

I'm thinking that perhaps one of the reasons that we battle at the end of a diet is because we see it as a diet and not a new lifestyle. If we get to the end and think "I've done it", "I've succeeded" and not continue with the new lifestyle we are bound to fail at keeping the weight off. It's not a sprint with a trophy at the end that we can show off to prove we've won, it's really the beginning of our new lifestyles.

We need to keep at it, probably quite diligently, for a while until we learn new eating habits. We didn't become obese overnight, it was a long period of eating the wrong way and I think that to learn new eating habits will not be an overnight achievement either. We need to keep going because the race is long distance and we will only really get to the end when we are able to maintain our new slim bodies when our healthy eating is second nature and not just the means to an end.

Just my 2c worth.

Louise