Deviation Rant - SMS boils over!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Today I have been finished for 3 months. My weight today is still just under my target weight (600g below) and fluctuates within a 2kg range from 67 to 69 kg.

Interesting the comments around the board recently re: deviations.

[rant]
What's more interesting is the "justifications" for deviations. Frankly, there aren't any justifications for it. I am, of course, not talking about unknown deviations due to lack of knowledge or some such. I am talking about deliberate deviations. Like that bar of chocolate, or Maccas, or champers, or it was a big social function, or I spent money for it. (you spent a lot of money on the program as well I believe).

My feelings? You all can probably guess. Self-gratification before common sense. Even when they know it's going to hurt them. I'd like to dredge up part of the following that I posted early this year even though it's not even related to the program.

http://newyouforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5187

7. Experience isn’t necessarily the best teacher – unless you’re going to throw the experiences of others into the equation. You don’t have to stick your hand in the fire to know that it’s hot. And you don’t have to experiment with drugs or premarital sex or anything else to know they’re dangerous. Others have already proven that. Trust them.

Just insert the word "deliberate deviation" in the quote above. Read the threads, read the maintenance diaries, see the struggles and then imagine the numbers of Cohenites who thought that they could beat or shortcut the system and were too embarrassed to return to the board for help. Sure, if you come back, we are going to support your quest for redemption but don't expect us to ever agree with deliberate deviations or deliberate circumventing of the program. You paid for a program that works if you follow it. It was not sold to you as a partially completed plan that you could customize. It was sold to you as a complete journey with a given set of variables. Everybody enters into it with their eyes wide open (one would hope). There are no shortcuts. Refeed, if done properly will give you a good indication of where your problems areas will be once you go onto maintenance. This is why the fruit allowance is so heavy and when the bread loading and carb loading start, if followed, it will show you if and how much carb loading you can handle. It's all there, I've stated this before. I believe it is necessary to eat ALL that is indicated during refeed if at all possible as that is the only way you will see where the potential problems are while still in a controlled environment.

Another thing I've been seeing is things like "deviation during the program is better as it gives you foresight to how to combat it later". To me that's total BS. Deliberate deviations during the program just tells me a person is weak and if they cannot pony up the will power when they have written instructions on what to do, then there is no way they are going to survive afterward when left to their own devices.

Yes, there are some with emotional eating disorders. I am aware of those and I accept that they are somewhat different. However, when one can go for months on end or even a year without wavering at all and then fall off the wagon upon finishing maintenance, well, go back and read #7 again.

I've been told that I approached this program very analytical. A number of other do as well. I think we HAVE to be analytical in order to understand what it is we are trying to accomplish and what is necessary for us to do it. I've been told I just don't understand what those with huge amounts to lose go through. How much is huge? For the person who only has to lose 12 kg 26 kg is huge. for the 45kg girl 25kg is over 1/3rd of her bodyweight. It's all relative.

This is why I am still keeping a daily log of my eating habits 90+ days after finishing. Has it become a habit yet? Yes, I think is has (and so has keeping the log as well ). But is it the habit I thought it would be? No. It's a habit of watching what I eat and when I eat and how much I eat.

But is that bad? NO. It just means I'm like most people walking around out there who don't have a 'visible' weight problem. How many of the athletes we see on the roads every evening after work would be future Cohenites if they stopped running and succumbed to urge to have that Macca or big block of Cadbury's every time the thought crossed their mind? It means I now have to take responsibility for my actions. For what I shove into my gob and when. We are no different than most of the others except we didn't say no. Now we must, just like everybody else does.

The difference? We have the knowledge of how to offset momentary relapses. However, if you slacken, there will come a point of time when you have a "relapse" that will immediately follow another "relapse" because you feel you are equipped with the "knowledge". Then BANG, you are tagged and into the downward spiral that finds you back on the program or slinking off into the sunset in shame. Why gamble? Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Out of respect to all the others on this board, I would hope that those who feel differently about following the program the way it was designed to be followed, would leave those thoughts elsewhere. Here we prefer being a beacon of hope and encouragement and support.
[/rant]

SMS
The "New" Stallion

[Faithy]

Hey SMS.. I just wanted to say congrats for doing so well on the other side..

Awesome post & I couldn't agree more.. I dont get, nor will I ever get someone who wants to continually deviate whilst on the program.. why waste your money or even sign up for it in the first place..

I think a lot of people just dont get how the program really works.. it's not just a low cal plan.. it's based on science & pussyfooting around to me is just a waste of time..

I lost 90 kilos in 12 months.. no small feet & I'm proud of myself 100% for sticking to it 100%.. I dont get why people are happy & content to take their time losing their weight when they pay for a rapid fat loss program.. beats me.. bit of an oxymoron really.. it's like lets lose 6 kilos this month.. oh but wait.. i want cake, I want wine.. etc etc.. (like a little kid throwing a tantrum)

As for maintenance.. I'm a slow goose but I'm working it out & really the guidelines do say it all.. guess I was just blind when I read them the first 100 times but I got it now ..

Awesome post XXX

[Cheral]

Hi

Whilst I personally agree with you both, re sticking to the programme 100% , I do think you are being too hard. If you can welcome back with sympathy and understanding those who have completed the programme, but then not followed the maintenance guidelines, or not balanced their food intake, or for whatever reason have gained weight to the point of having to do the programme again, why so hard on those who take their time and are content with slower losses.
People on maintenance are continually saying how different we all are in our approach to maintenance; I do wonder if the same sympathetic approach to those who chose to do it differently should be taken to those on the plan itself. And I don’t mean things like being good during the week and having a burger and chips and other such foods on the weekend. Thats sabotage!!!
The rapid weight loss on the programme was a bonus for me, but not the main reason I chose Cohen’s. Your 90kgs is amazing, your dedication and self discipline to be applauded, but if it had taken you twice as long, your loss would still have been just as amazing. We all travel differently and it’s ending up in the same place that I think is the most important.

Cheral
xx

[Faithy]

I do wonder if the same sympathetic approach to those who chose to do it differently should be taken to those on the plan itself. And I don’t mean things like being good during the week and having a burger and chips and other such foods on the weekend. Thats sabotage!!!

Cheral.. I cant speak for SMS.. but THOSE are the people I am refering too.. there are quite a few who are trying to stick to the program during the week & then blow out on the weekends.. often!

Reality is maintenance IS trial & error, we all react differently to different foods so it is what works for one may not work for another.. the program IS written for INDIVIDUALS & is designed to be stuck to 100% for it to work at its optimum.. if people go on holidays & decide to deviate, that's their choice & while I personally wouldn't, I respect their decision.. THAT is completely different & they are not the people I am referring too.

Yes there are people who take longer to lose weight than others.. some because that's the way their bodies are made.. there are people I know personally who have battled it out hard & long & I am in awe of what they have achieved.. but they didn't deviate every other week & then complain that the plan isn't working for them..

Reality is that our programs are scientifically based on our blood profiles & if we muck around too much our blood profiles change then our programs will no longer work for us they way they once did.. to me it's not worth it.

As I said earlier.. this isn't a low cal diet.. this program is designed to get our hormones at levels that help us to achieve rapid fat loss.. have we all ever wondered if we muck around too much what damage we could be doing? Our levels end up ALL over the place... That is not how the program works.. I dont see that as being too harsh.. it's the way it is.

[Cheral]

Originally Posted by Faithy

.. if people go on holidays & decide to deviate, that's their choice & while I personally wouldn't, I respect their decision.. THAT is completely different & they are not the people I am referring too.

Yes there are people who take longer to lose weight than others.. some because that's the way their bodies are made.. there are people I know personally who have battled it out hard & long & I am in awe of what they have achieved.. but they didn't deviate every other week & then complain that the plan isn't working for them..

I definately agree here. I dont think this diet will deliver 50% loss's for 50% effort.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Cheral,

My post is primarily about those who are constant deviators DURING the program. After you hit maintenance, you are supposed to continue to experiment with the refeed until you arrive at a balance that you can live with. If that means carbing up and burning it off on the track or in the gym and putting on muscle, fine. If it means eating less and relaxing more without effort or relapse also fine. But for me, and this is NOT what my post was about. I think those who hit maintenance and do this type of thing week in and week out are also asking for trouble as the hormone balancing that the program created is systematically dismantled and sooner or later that person is going to go into a tailspin. It took months to reprogramme, but it only needs days to destroy the fine balance and set yourself up for insulin spikes and cravings and next thing you know, Bang. Back on the program (but probably by then you will find that the program no longer will work as too many things have changed and you will then need to purchase a new program.

People tend to get complacent. And complacency causes relapses, undoing lots of hard won losses. The biggest thing each and every one of us has to learn is that WE CAN NEVER GO BACK TO ENJOYING FOOD LIKE WE DID BEFORE. We can enjoy food, but not a gluttons.

I am finding is increasing hard to write without stepping on toes, which I don't want to do. My answers are generic in nature and I'm not pointing at anyone in particular but is an observation only. So with that I just shut my gob!

[Cheral]

Not my toes SMS - healthy discussion hurts no-one.

Keep Well

Cheral

[Annabelle Joy]

Interesting discussion. I've done this with no deliberate deviations and found it easy. However, I've tried many other diets, done well initially then deviated. This time I had the right mindset; in the past I didn't. It wasn't that I wanted it any less in the past. Faithy, you've probably tried diets previously without success. What was different this time? I'm sympathetic to those who deviate because I know from the past how difficult it can be. If I could package the difference for me this time I could make the whole population slim. However, I really don't know what the difference is, except perhaps that I've done a lot of analysis over the past several years and understand myself a lot better.

AJ

[Faithy]

Originally Posted by Annabelle Joy

Faithy, you've probably tried diets previously without success. What was different this time?

AJ

Yes I have AJ .. you name them, I've tried them. What was different this time? A number of things I suppose. Before I started the program I told myself this was it, do or die.. BUT I think everyone misses this one funemental thing.. IF and I mean IF we stick to our programs 100% it eliminates the craving factor which we why we all struggle on 'other' diet programs.

Take WW for example. We can have cheat days once a week. We can eat chocolate cake if we want to, so long as we take the points into consideration & have less of something else elsewhere.. but for people like me that's not going to work because sugar & processed flour cause MASSIVE cravings & so it sends me on a shocking binge... I then tell myself, well that's OK because I can make up for it later in the week.. but the cravings dont go so we continue on that nasty road..

I think to do this program we either do it 100% & stay content to just accept that this works or we do this 100% & learn as much as possible as to WHY it works the way it does to help us accept it better.. make sense?

The foods balance those 3 hormones so we dont crave foods, we dont feel hungry & we burn fat.. if we put a food in the mix that isn't listened on our programs we cause an unbalance in those hormones which then cause insulin spikes, hunger, cravings & the fat burning ceases. It can take up to a week to rebalance those hormones so if we CHEAT every weekend we are in effect getting NOWHERE! And this is why I don't condone deviating on THIS program because of the science behind it.. sure it boils down to individual choice, but if someone parts with all that money for a rapid fat burning program, why sabotage yourself week after week? What's the point. The program WORKS & does as it says it does IF we stick to it.. if we dont, it wont.

SMS sorry for hijacking your diary.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Faithy,

It's not hijacking my thread. I'm the analytical one. And we are having a analytical discussion on deviations and why they shouldn't happen on this program. So it's right where is should be!

If it gets much longer, I'll just split all from my initial rant into it's own thread. Which might not be such a bad idea anyway?

[Faithy]

I cant see that it would hurt any .. It's pretty important stuff

[Annabelle Joy]

I am sympathetic to those who are trying to lose weight but can't resist temptation when it arises -- been there, done that, and many times. However, I agree with everything you've said, Faithy. I think that anyone who is deviating constantly because they can't resist whatever their friends are having will be wasting their time even if they do manage to get to goal. They aren't in control of their eating, and unless they can learn to say no they will put the weight back on.

I have used the Atkins diet twice. I don't feel hungry on that, similar principles to Cohen's to control hunger (high protein, low carb). What I find better on Cohen's is that I know exactly how much I can eat, and it's much more specific with regard to what I can eat. For many of us who are successful, that's one of the aspects that makes us successful. However, it's also a contributator to deviation for others. I almost always would like more to eat in the evenings, never feel properly full after dinner. I can understand how someone feeling some hunger as I do and is with friends who are eating would be tempted to deviate.

It's not easy. We have been successful because we were single minded from the beginning (well, I hope I'll be joining you soon). However, I think that those who really want to lose weight but can't resist temptation require understanding, encouragement and sympathy rather than condemnation.

What about moving to the deviations thread, SMS, starting with your rant. I often refer someone who has deviated to that thread in the hope that they may find some help there.

AJ

[new_ruby]

Congratulations to those who have been able to make it through their journey without a deviation. Your ability to do this is truly admirable.

Without making excuses for the mere mortals of the world however, I do believe that each person is on their own journey, and will follow their own path to success. Not everyone can make it through the way SMS, Faithy, AJ and others have done it so well. But anyone who gets there in the end is to be commended, not villified for being weak, lacking common sense, not understanding the science of the program, or the like. Those negative thoughts and such commentary may only serve to put people back in a place where too many have been for too long.

I am coming back from the dark side, after a not so happy 8 or 9 days, but I am back. That is what is commendable, not a blemish free scorecard handed out by others who don't know me.

Thanks for the opportunity to seek out such great support on the forum. Now can we do it without the vilifications...?

[baloo]

I'm a mere mortal. Plenty of failed dieting attempts and every conceivable diet known to man has been tried and failed. But Cohen's worked. 49kg in 6months, 2 weeks and 4 days.

There is another aspect to this deviation pussy footing that's happening on the forum. People here need strength and support to finish the programme. I know when I was on the programme if I deviated I was never copped the "now now, there there, start again and all will be better" and thank god for that. An avoidable deliberate deviation on the programme should be jumped on and the person needs to realise that they have taken another step to remaining fat or obese.

These days I find there is way too much leniency amoungst the members and when someone can obviously been seen to deviate regularly, there is no one prepared to come out with the tough love that's needed to make them see that they are fooling no one.

I've stayed away from this forum for a while because I was struggling to control my posts. This programme is bloody hard enough already without people making you feel ok about deviating. I doubt I would have been as successful on the programme if I had attempted it 12 months later where the focus is on empathy and not realism.

[Erra]

Why are you so passionate about other peoples problems SMS?

Seeing as how you claim to have no time for it....this is actually a serious question, that I would hope you would have a think about.

We are all here to improve ourselves. Some people are just weak, and/or stupid. Doesn't mean we have to buy into it, and lend it energy.

So why have you?

[baloo]

Originally Posted by Erra

Why are you so passionate about other peoples problems SMS?

Seeing as how you claim to have no time for it....this is actually a serious question, that I would hope you would have a think about.

We are all here to improve ourselves. Some people are just weak, and/or stupid. Doesn't mean we have to buy into it, and lend it energy.

So why have you?

Allow me to have a shot of answering this one as well.

This forum is here to support people through the Cohen's Programme. People come here to lean on each other, gain strength and learn from those you have finished.

By allowing a soft stand on deviations, we are doing a disservice to everyone that comes here. Here they should find their strength of conviction, the tough love that sets them straight and points out why they are not successful on the programme.

If people just want a place to have a chat about weight loss and moan about why it's not going great while in the next sentance mention the deviation they had, then this place shouldn't be where they come.

As to why I'm here, and I know SMS will have the same reasons, well this forum helped us achieve what we never thought we could achieve. There is even a good chance without this forum I'd still be 140kg. I owe this forum a lot, more than I can ever repay it. I feel it's my duty to the board to continue down a path where it can help people like me come here to find a solution to their obesity. Being blase about deviations is not going to achieve that.

[Andy46]

How very true and well put SMS and Faithy and Baloo - there is no pussy footing around when it comes to getting in and doing what you are meant to be doing - in life or doing Cohens - and its not about being passionate about others problems - it is about being a realist and facing up to the problem and being honest enough to do something about it and not just accepting and repeating the problem because its sorta O K.

This forum is about support thats genuine for genuine people who are doing something about their lives - and at times its very very tough and at no times should a deviation thats deliberate or on going be supported.

The point that is being made is - its not ok to do 3 days on Cohens then just have a couple of days eating what ever you like then coming on here the forum and having a big spit about how the program is not working and then think the world should feel sorry for you because you really do want to loose weight but not stick to the plan because its not the way "it should be" or "it should have this food as well as that food because its not going to matter much" as if its ok to change the rules to suit yourself.

The product you buy is the plan and for it to work you have to be 100 % ......... mind body and soul or your wasting your time.

So really - get real - do the plan and be a winner !!!

Andy

[katrina]

Tough love is something not enough of us get now days.
I get frustrated reading peoples posts and all they seem to do is deviate and make excuses for the deviation.
Obesity is a disease and if we had cancer or diabetes the world gives you sympathy and understanding. If we went off our meds or treatment and say died we couldn't turn around and say Oh sorry just had a munch on some cake but I'll get back to it.
I have never been in control of my eating an emotional eater due to a traumatic childhood and an abusive relationship.
I cryed a river I built a bridge I got over it, yes it rips my guts out and things are thrown in my face on a daily basis however I choose how I react to the daily grind.
I was told by a friend she had the secret to being slim not just near skinny right on the money as long as you stuck with it.
If someone said I can show you how to make a million dollars as long as you stay with it you all would stand up and listen.
As I have a long way to go and have only been on the programme 6 or so weeks I am sure people are waiting for a fall however I am not looking to have a fall. I came into this mentally prepared to change me and finally be able to live life.
Get tough and get healthy as that is the only way some people will listen. The people who are offended I ask why are you concerned and offended? If you aren't wanting to hear what is said take what information you need and grow from it.
Ultimatley it is about choice and how we choose to react to life and past experiences.
Time to live people and living is being on the programme 100%.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Originally Posted by Erra

Why are you so passionate about other peoples problems SMS?

Seeing as how you claim to have no time for it....this is actually a serious question, that I would hope you would have a think about.

We are all here to improve ourselves. Some people are just weak, and/or stupid. Doesn't mean we have to buy into it, and lend it energy.

So why have you?

Erra,

Have a read of my refeed diary. See what it did for me. I was not a huge loser like a number of regulars here. In fact I was a lightweight in comparison to some (losing less than a third of some in fact). But, I was "Obese" none-the-less. I had high blood pressure which was being contained at borderline high with two medications daily. I also was on lovastatin for my cholesterol and allipurinol for my gout. I've been on those meds for about a decade. Today, thanks to Dr. Cohen I am absolutely normal and no longer take any meds. I made up my mind that I was going to do this right come hell or high water. I lost weight a lot slower than most as being 60+ I was told only to expect 1kg/wk most. I actually managed 1.1kg/wk but never did I doubt either myself (I made a commitment to me) or the ability of this program. If you think the money thing is tough in Aus you should come up to Singapore and pay for it. (currently over S$1400 for the program).

I recently turned 61 and most now think I'm no more than 48 or so. I've gained back my health, I know what this program is capable of doing and I hate to see people waste their time. If you continually deviate you are wasting your time, my time and everybody else's time who posts into your diary trying to help you.

I've always loved helping people (I worked for UNHCR resettling VN refugees back in the late 80's -early 90's for 3.5 years as well). I do, however, believe in tough love. This program is the best thing I've ever seen and here is the best support group for any weightloss program I've ever seen. But support is just that. SUPPORT. It's not commiseration, is not "aw, you'll do better next time. It is, however, a place of encouragement. Sure, when you deviate because of the emotional factor we are going to empathize with you the first time. But this is not a pity party. This is a forum to support those who REALLY WANT TO LOSE THE WEIGHT AND REMAKE THEIR LIFESTYLES into a healthy one.

I've said it before, you can deviate all you want and you can still lose the weight. The problem, however, is that you will never successfully reprogramme your HGH and once off the program, I guarantee you will fall off the program. I know how successful other have been, I know how successful I've been. I want all who come here to be just as successful. If that means an occasional scolding is in order get someone to face reality then so be it. If it gets one more of them to turn it around then it's worth it.

I stay here to help those who honestly want help and not pity.

[Littlefulla]

WOW Guys what an awesome thread. I love the passion from SMS, Faithy & Andy. To me this is what I want to hear and this is what it is all about. I havent read the maintenance or refeed diaries but will now. These guys have/are doing it and you only have to look at the results!!! I know who Ill be following and with what advice. What an inspirational read!! Thanks guys - a thread I will read often!!