asy's thoughts on Deviation...

[sundaymorningstaple]

Fifty2drop, welcome aboard. Been reading your posts for quite a while now (although I rarely post on the other site the nick's the same). Hope you cruise through the program without any problems this time.

sms

[firefox]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum. I've been on the diet about 2 months now, and I am so amazed by how well it is working. My consultant told me that deviations in certain things are more serious than others. For example, if you eat out, and you order a salad with all the right veges and the right protein, then the weight is not as crucial (as long as you don't do it everyday, and make sure that you leave the 5-hour gap). Also when I feel dizzy in the afternoons, she recommends I take 2 extra crackers and an extra fruit to combat a hormonal dip.

I completely agree with some of you who said that you have to get used to the fact that you will have to be disciplined about your eating for the rest of your life. I tell myself: if I can't do it for a few months, how will I do it for the rest of my life? If I go back to eating how I did before, of course I will go back to the same weight. And I do NOT want that.

Also, I want to be a good example for my kids. Obesity runs in my family (probably a combination of genetics and bad food habits passed down through the ages!) and I want my kids to know that with some discipline and awareness, they don't have to give in to that trait.

Why deviate when you can feel great? I am loving my life now and I will never go back to being that woman who can't stop herself from eating something she knows she shouldn't.

[carrieanne_c]

WOW, they were pretty frivolous with deviating back in 2008. this is a very interesting thread, I love all of the different opinions on the decadence of deviation.

[FlaMie]

Oh gosh! I didn't realise this thread exists! This is such a wonderful thread for all who are planning to get on Cohen, on Cohen or even after Cohen!

7 months into Cohen and with 33kg to lose, I've deviated twice much to my own dissatisfaction. I had wanted to do this 100% because I learnt that it is not the programme that I had to deal with but it is myslf - the one inside that I have to treat. I AM ILL WITH OBESITY! Nothing is clearer than this. I've battered my body with so much of ill treatment such as weight loss pills / slimming machines / vigorous exercises etc. You name it and I've done it before. I've even taken Slim10! I'm grateful that I'm still alive today (for those who have heard about slim10, you know what I mean). I've been searching for an answer to lose weight and finally I found it - not Cohen but the answer is myself! All that it takes to lose weight is really my will power to say NO to temptations and work it into my body system - eat when the time is due and don't eat for the sake of entertainment or socialising. It is also NOT OK to deviate because it will just lead to more indulgence in the path. For the most of us who are obese, it is not really the programmes that have failed but ourselves that have failed to restrain our heads!

Cohen is RIGID because there's a REAL need to do so especially for obese people. C'mon let's face it, we wouldn't have got to this state if we had not be indulgent in our old ways. Hence, Cohen has to be rigid because he is teaching us something! He is putting on an external restraint on us as we just can't do it on our own till we are ready (complete the journey). We'll only get to complete the journey if we fix our heads early and in time. This is also likely the reason why more people succeed on Cohen because of the rigid boundary he has set up. The other weight loss programmes incidentally don't quite do that. They most likely just tell you to 'control' but don't quite teach you how to do it while you are on your own! Same as slimming centres. You are there 2 out of 7 days perhaps but you are 5 days on your own without machines and how are you going to cope? By the time you return to the machines the following week, you would have 5 full days of new fats piled up to clear... so how can you ever be successful?!

So, in short, Cohen is not the treatment. It is the tool! The treatment is really yourself / your head / heart. If you fix that right PLUS Cohen (rapid loss), it makes it even more motivating and truly transformational journey that one can ever receive.

As I edge on to refeed, all I can say is that I'm totally thankful to Cohen who has given me a set of tools to use to defend myself. I've as strictly stuck to the programme minus the 2 deviations which I'll remember for the rest of my life. I was lucky to have got off unscathed but I know, it doesn't always have to happen that way and there's nothing proud to boast of those deviations.

[lily]

Originally Posted by meagain

Great post Asy, yet again

This is exactly what I was thinking. I also think the same about the Cohen's weight range or my own weight range debate.

Does anyone know where I might be able to find the post 'cohen's weight range or my weight range debate'. I have searched and think it would be a top read. Any answers are much appreciated. Cheers!

[TransformationSoup]

Originally Posted by lessfatty

I have a little bit of a different perspective on deviations.

In the world of biochemistry and human metabolism it would be plan and simple that scientifically there is no such thing as 100% Cohen and deviation free, it is a gray area from foods 100% fine to 100% disasters like high fructose corn syrup in soft drinks. The Cohen diet is more or less a "safe set" of foods that Dr Cohen has found works best for most people.

I completed Cohen and I think I deviated more than most. I went on a European holiday and deliberately went off the diet (but followed the after cohen diet suggestions). I had soy sauce on occasion when I had tuna (Sashimi), I didn't really actually feel that guilty doing it either. However I didn't give myself permission to indulge, in any one of the 1000s of possible comfort foods (pizza, beer).

Thus to my thinking deviation free is simply a commitment issue rather than a black and white biology issue. If you deviate never do it with carbs or alcohol, these just totally disrupt your blood hormone levels (insulin) and generate hunger feelings (drop in blood sugar) and make you feel tired and low energy (serotonin) . Even today 1 year after Cohen, if I eat a biscuit , I can eat 3, then the whole package and feel hungrier at the end and afterwards just feel tired.

Sometimes you are caught out of home (sudden work crisis, sick child) without a cohen meal, the consultant I dealt with basically said in these cases drink water (ie starve), but I suggest do your best with what you can get, even if it is the beef patties out of a big mac with a McDonald's salad without the dressing.

Lessfatty, I have to say that I agree with you here. There are many kinds of deviation. An extra piece of fruit for example, or battered fish and chips... big difference.

I have had my deviations now, felt bad about 2, enjoyed 1... anyway, not going back there, I am really looking forward to the end of this and don't want to put it back any further!!

[Kim 1968]

Wow!!! This really hits where it's needed.

From this new person... just starting my programme today.

THANKS!!!!

[Kohinoor]

Hi Lily,

I'm not sure it is a thread per se....

Does anyone know where I might be able to find the post 'cohen's weight range or my weight range debate'. I have searched and think it would be a top read.

Reading Meagain's quote, I suspect this is a debate that was raging within her head !! Of course, you might want to go to the Member List, seek out Meagain, and show her posts - that might help to give you an insight to "how she thinks", and maybe even lead to her espousing her views on weight range - I'm not sure. There may have been other threads like that though - sorry, haven't checked (I'm time poor ATM)

Koh

[fornight]

Originally Posted by meagain

Koh,

At about 3-4 kilos from my top goal (68 -69kgs), I started to look gaunt and have big black circles under my eyes, and my skin looked shocking. (I was asked several times if it was me and not my sister who had cancer. Others asked if everything was alright.) I was questioning going to my goal weight of 65, let alone the bottom goal weight of 62kgs. I was also unable to concentrate and everyone (including my husband) was commenting on the gauntness. Also, my hair had started to thin out from the rapid weight loss.

I entered refeed at goal, worked through refeed and have ended up at my lower goal range. (62kgs)

During refeed, my face 'filled out', even though I still lost weight during the refeed. (Interestingly, some of the same people who made gaunt comments a week or two earlier now begain to commment how great I looked.) Now, six months down the track, my skin and nails are healthier, my hair has started to regain its volume, I look healthy and radiant (From what others have told me). The maintenance guidelines keep you looking like that, and set you up to look great.

I am glad I didn't stop at 68 or 69 kilos. I would encourage everyone to go to their goal range, not a range of their choice, go through refeed and stick to the maintenance guidelines.

I went on faith, I just figured you don't have post doctoral work on weight loss, work in hte medical profession etc to put so may thousands of people at risk. I am glad I put my faith in the good doctor.


Just my fice cents worth, for what they're worth.

Is this the one?? I am glad you mention it!!!! I need this post!!!

[sundaymorningstaple]

That's the one. It also says what I've always told the two of you as well at our meet-ups isn't it! You have to put your faith in Dr. C 100%. It works.

[Kohinoor]

Hi Fornight,

Well done for seeking that out.... It answers Lily's question beautifully !!!

Koh

[lily]

Thanks Fortnight, Koh and SMS

Thats the post I was after and needing to hear sooo badly right now as it is EXACTLY how I am feeling! My boss even asked me if I might be pregnant because I was looking so unwell in the face (very flat tummied I might add) but she said some women look sick in the early stages. She then promptly sent me home to rest and she said I was looking very sick. Everyone I know keeps asking if I am okay and that I am looking drawn and gaunt. I am also not feeling well at all. I will rest and work through this and get to my goal weight. Thanks for the post, it will keep me going!

[fornight]

Sms - Yes! I remember during my 1st meet up with you, Flamie asked the exact question and you gave her the same answer. I was in this short temporary denial phase for the past week so I chose to block the memory! I am so lucky that lily is also having the same problem and Koh highlighted the post.

After reading the post, my motivation is once again FIRE up!

[therenmeister]

You know I comend all your people on the Cohens diet who have the drive, the need and the want to stay on it 100%. I find it truly an amazing effort.

Ive been on Cohens for about 3 weeks now and have lots about 5 kilos...whilst I probably should have lost 7 or more kilos, i have not managed to stick to Cohens 100%. Its just the reality, I wish i could have the devotion...but i just dont.

I understand that Cohens is a "medical formula and prescription" but there is also a reality that if you change your eating habits...you still just may lose weight.

I have on a couple of occassions eaten non-cohens friendly food.

Whilst most of you wont accept the fact that someone doesnt follow the program 100% of the time, maybe there are some people in the same boat who would like to lose some weight and get healthy. I know that by following the diet 80-100% of the time I am still going to progress towards good weight loss...maybe just not dramatic results.

Cohens is teaching me portions, variety in food, a good intake of fruit and vegetables, and weight loss along the way. Had I not started the program, i would not be on this path.

I understand that you 100% devotees dont want to know this, for fear of deviation yourselves, but Im sure there is a place that others can post without fear of critism.
Now of course if I want to lose the weight quickly Cohen's 100% dedication is the only way to go. But personally for me part of the way im doing is healthy because I am not going to form "obsessive or diet like" habits.

I really enjoy reading everyones progress, thoughts, daily lives etc, and I just dont think that I or anyone else should be judged because of the way Im going about it.
Im not posting because i need anyone saying..oh its okay that you deviated...thats my problem to deal with. I just enjoy the forum and want to be part of it. There may also be some of you saying, oh well you shouldnt have joined Cohens if you werent going to follow 100% of the way, but isnt that my decision?

Anyway, thats my thoughts on it, and maybe just maybe there should be a place on the forum where people like me can post??

[Kohinoor]

Hi TR,

Interesting post.... I presume you had "checked out" Cohens before you started it? Thus you'd have had "an idea" of what it all entailed before parting with your $$ ???

As an "outsider" on here, I applaud those who embrace the journey in full, and turn their lives around. And, thanks to threads like this one, MANY starting out realise the importance of staying 100% for best results.

Of course, anyone can buy a program, and can choose to do it as stated, or not - no argument there - it's your money.... And, as you said, I'm sure many can do "OK" just by watching what they eat, even if they aren't completely "on Plan" (nor even on Cohens at all). The big concern comes when nearing refeed (and Maintenance after). Will a "patchy" path on Plan, then on to refeed, work well enough to have them settle into Maintenance without issues? Hmm - frankly, I dunno....

But I do know that for some, anything less than 100% doesn't work for them - seems it has worked for you, for now at least..... I hope it keeps on that way, for your sake.

Also, if your path on Plan doesn't allow the seratonin, HGH, etc. to kick in, you might well be "pushing into a head-wind" all the way to goal. As before, it's your money, effort, and time.... and, in the end, your results.... I hope they are what you wish for.

Let's look at it from a different angle though - let's say you went to your GP over some problem, and they presribed a course of Antibiotics - "Take 2 per day, one after breakfast, and one after dinner - every day for the next 14 days". Would you also be tempted to skip one or two, here and there, and expect that you will be cured at the end of 16 or 17 days? Again, I dunno - it's just a point made for your consideration.....

Originally Posted by The Renmeister

Anyway, thats my thoughts on it, and maybe just maybe there should be a place on the forum where people like me can post??

Well, it worked here.... It hasn't been deleted yet, as I see it as healthy to discuss all issues, fears, thoughts, so that others can decide for themselves too. Of course, I can't answer for all Mods/Admins - I only answer for me right now.....

Why not start a Diary in the "New Diaries" section? And do check out the "stickies" in that area, as there is a requirement to make a Diary Request, as you'll see.

Koh

[therenmeister]

Koh

I note and appreciate your "pushing into a head wind all the way comment", maybe thats going to be completely true!!!! But after reading some of the diary's...it doesnt seem easy to alot of people...hunger etc. I followed the plan completely for a week and a bit and WAS STARVING...lightheaded etc...i just couldnt do it. Thats probably the reason that I cant follow it 100%.

Ive thought about starting a diary, but felt that people may not appreciate my honesty to food in it, when they are trying their hardest.

Ive read fornight's diary and was obbsessed with it...i cant believe the dedication that girl has. Hers was sooo interesting to read because she was completely honest about everything! Work, life, family and diet.

I can appreciate everyone's comments about it, but I guess the only things I dont need to be told that I dont belong on the forum if i dont have 100% commitment.

One question I have is - has anybody noticed their commitment level changing the further into the program they get?????

[Kohinoor]

Hi Renmeister,

I followed the plan completely for a week and a bit and WAS STARVING...lightheaded etc...i just couldnt do it. Thats probably the reason that I cant follow it 100%.

The first few days are well-known to be hard - but, after that, things (for most) just get better and better, as long as they don't deviate. That's for ~90% of people - not ALL are blessed with "the zone"....

Did your clinic advise anything to counteract the problems you had?

Koh

[Faithy]

Hey Renmeister,

I'm not going to enter in the debate.. I just wanted to share with you in short my journey.

It took me 2 to 3 weeks to get in to the zone & to no longer feel dizzy & light headed. It was incredibly hard, I wont lie.. but by the end of the 3rd week all my hormone levels were where they needed me to be to no longer feel tired & hungry.. I in fact ended up with more energy & felt amazing.. throughout my 12 months I stuck to it 100%.. again not easy but well worth the prize.. one of my main goals was to get there ASAP.. hell, why would I wish to prolong this more than necessary..

We all have different strengths & weaknesses.. I am not a strong person when it comes to food & I will admit the occasional struggle now.. but this journey was made easier because in the long run I remained 100%.. I felt good & I just kept my eye on the prize.. I think the thing that helped was that I saw all things off the plan as poison..

Sure, you will lose weight, for now.. possibly more fluid than fat.. it will slow down though.. but you are right.. your money, your choice.. but honestly if I were you I'd say to myself something like.. commit to this 100% for just a month and then see if the results & the feeling you get are worth it.. just a month.. I KNOW you can do it

Either way I wish you the success you are seeking.

[lil_doll]

Hey there Renmeister!

I agree with Koh and Faithy that it is, of course, your plan, your time, your money... but I also agree that the zone can take time to reach... Also, we don't know your stats or your previous diet/lifestyle... maybe you need to get through a big detox first and foremost... so I agree with Faithy and think you should attempt to give the plan a chance to get you through the detox (like a month)...

Also, we don't know the type of "deviations" you are having (big blow-outs or something on par with cohens)... but, I think if you contacted your clinic, they would probably tell you to increase your crispbread and fruit allowance for a bit to help with the hunger for the first while.

You could have done any diet, without any measurements and probably achieved the same/similar results... without doing it right I think you will find the loss will slow down. My clinic told me that the first like 3 weeks worth of losses are water weight... and without the things that happens on Cohens (I can't even pretend to know them, but when your hormones and HGH start getting a workout) I don't see how you will be getting the full benefit of the diet.

Also... If I were you, I wouldn't think twice about starting a diary! You have a plan, you have a plan number and you are on a journey... Of course, you shouldn't be too surprised if you cop a little flack about your choices (It's not like you're the first to have deviated), so I am sure there will be people to support you... me, for one.

Good luck!

Missy

[Shanara]

HI renmeister,

You raise a number of interesting points in your posts. I'd like to address some of them.

Firstly it is always your choice on how you do the programme. If you choose to not follow the programme 100% then that is entirely up to you.

Ive thought about starting a diary, but felt that people may not appreciate my honesty to food in it, when they are trying their hardest.

Your diary is for you. Others always have a choice about whether they choose to read it or not - be as honest as you want but always keep in mind that others are also free to be honest with you in what they write there.

About the whole deviation thing - it is and always has been the most contentious issue on this forum. There are those who say that 100% - deviation free is the way to go. Others take a different approach and choose to deviate. Really it is up to each person how they travel this journey - for a journey it is and there is much to be learnt along the way.

It has been said on here quite often, yet still gets an angry response from many however as you seem to be one who admires honesty I feel I can say it to you without you taking it personally. If you don't get your head straight you will not succeed on this journey. Particularly if you a woman. For some reason the guys, in general, seem to loose it quicker and have far less problems with the emotional side. Not always but generally that is my observation.

Some of us have been on this forum for a while - myself well over 12 months, and have seen a lot embark on the journey. We have seen in general what works and what doesn't. We have watched those who have struggled and those who have fallen by the way. Unfortunately those who deviate are often the ones falling by the way. It starts with just a little deviation, then gets bigger. For some it only takes one time and they can't get back on track - others seem to be able to get away with it for longer - but in most cases it catches up with them.

For me personally I have no problem with people deviating - it is their choice. Where I struggle is when it is promoted on the forum. This forum was set up to support people on their Cohens journey - to be successful. For most people to be successful they have to be 100% to allow the reset and rebalance of the hormones. I have personally witnessed the deviation thing catch on like a wildfire - starting with little posts about people choosing to deviate and then all of a sudden everyone is deviating. I have also witnessed people leaving the forum because they are struggling and not being helped by talk of unthinking and uncared about deviations. At one stage it almost got to be a badge of honour - who could deviate the most and still loose weight.

As a moderator I feel part of my responsibility here is to help to keep a balance. For those who are struggling with deviations that they really don't want to do this forum is exactly the place for them to come. They will find lots of support here from other members and moderators. I have personally given people like that extra support with PM's and open support in the forum. For those who feel there journey is one of deviations then fine but I would ask them to be respectful of those on the forum who don't want to deviate or are struggling with that.

Untimately for the majority of people it doesn't work to deviate. If you are one of the small minority for whom that works then I say good luck to you. Please feel welcome on the forum but keep in mind that all are not so blessed and be kind to them.

Enjoy the journey,
Shanara