Whose ideal weight?

[Miss Penelope]

Hi Everyone. I just wanted to put a warning out there. I lost 40 kg on Cohen's then started to get hungry around 67 kg. My Cohen's ideal weight was 52-55kg but I am 40 years old and felt that I would be happy in my 60's and so did my doctor. At that stage I was size 10-12 and friends and family were concerned that I looked too thing. I didn't feel I could make it through on the amount of food in my plan and asked for refeed. It was denied and I proceeded to slowly regain my weight. I have lodged a complaint with the Geelong Clinic where I was contracted and have been told that they would not consider giving me my refeed until I was at least 59kg. I think this is wrong since the Australian Standard BMI states 62kg as the top of my healthy weight range so I lodged a complaint at Consumer Affairs Victoria. I'm interested to know what others think about this!

[Jamanoha]

Hmmm... this is a difficult one to answer, having not completed my program let alone started refeed.
All I can tell you is that the ideal weight is where you will be to have used up all your fat stores and to have corrected your metabolism... So, even though you feel healthy and look great at a certain weight, doesn't mean that you have used up your fat stores, thus meaning you will put weight straight back on again when you start eating your regular diet again.

Sorry... my mind has gone blank!!! lol
Hopefully one of the more "experienced" cohen-ites will come along and give some words of wisdom to you.
Sorry I haven't been much of a help... a huge congrats to you on your amazing results... keep up the brilliant work.
Lisa

[Miss Penelope]

Thanks for your comments Lisa. I was under the impression that if you do your refeed you should stop at the weight you're at. Other members have suggested that this is the case and a good reason for staying on track until you get to goal as it is hard to shift further once you do your refeed. I just think I know my body better than a doctor who has never met me. I come from a well built family and I don't want to be stick thin. I consider myself an empowered woman and I don't want to be dictated to about my ideal weight. Cheers!

[DebGallo]

wow that is an interesting question ! My Cohen's ideal weight is 63-66 - when they told me that i thought it was way too low for me. I am now at 67 and absolutely starving - i couldn't get to sleep last night casue i was so hungry 1 anyway i left a message for my consultant and she hot back to me straight away with recommendation to increase my protein by 30g and my vegies by 40g and add an extra fruit - she will order my refeed on monday and i'll go in and see her on wednesday (i had that appointment already booked)

i guess i was just very impressed with the speed that she got back to me and the willingness to increase my food intake eventhough she hadn't even ordered refeed yet! I guess she knows what she is doing !!

Good luck with your case !!!

deb

[sundaymorningstaple]

Originally Posted by Miss Penelope

Thanks for your comments Lisa. I was under the impression that if you do your refeed you should stop at the weight you're at. Other members have suggested that this is the case and a good reason for staying on track until you get to goal as it is hard to shift further once you do your refeed. I just think I know my body better than a doctor who has never met me. I come from a well built family and I don't want to be stick thin. I consider myself an empowered woman and I don't want to be dictated to about my ideal weight. Cheers!

It's obvious that you know more than the good doctor who has been researching this for over 20 years with thousands of diet statistics from women of all types of structures and builds.

Was it that same empowerment that caused you to gain that extra 40 kg? I'm sorry, but I feel empowerment is a double-edged sword when used wrongly. I feel that if you didn't follow the program as presented, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. As DebGallo noted, she got to the point where it got difficult, approached her consultant and got it sorted. If you don't complete the loss portion and don't eliminate the remaining fat stores, you will obviously start gaining weight again. It's easier to lose the weight down to the recommended levels and then build yourself up slowly to where you are happy rather than short-circuiting the program and therefore, eliminating all the reprogramming that was going on to your HGH. Seems a shame especially seeing you lost so much before you let empowerment get in your 'weigh'.

[baloo]

After reading the first post I had a lengthy reply ready. Then I read SMS's reply and realised everything I wanted to say had already been said.

[Faithy]

I'm pretty much with Baloo & SMS.. I've got about 3 kilos to go.. when I had about 10 left to go I 'felt' I knew my body & was ready to stop.. I also came across the odd doctor or 2 that had nothing but bad things to say about the program I was on.. BUT I decided to hang in there.. I was hungry & the hunger did leave me.. I'm now a size 8/10 & while I have 'many' people telling me I should stop I KNOW that 68 kilos for my height is quite a healthy weight.. I'm in the normal BMI now & have been for about 3 or 4 kilos now.. I am 41 in May.. I've chosen to go the higher end of what Dr Cohen suggested because I fear being too thin yadda yadda yadda.. but who knows, when I get closer I might change my mind.. The lower end of my BMI is 58 kilos.. that's a whole 10 kilos lower than what the good Doctor C suggests.. yet we never look at that as a consideration..

If I may be quite blunt.. Don't sell yourself short.. we can ALL make excuses as to why we want to stop early.. but for a moment be honest with yourself & ask yourself why.. is it REALLY those reasons you stated or something else..

Anyway, I wish you luck & success in whatever you decide.. but for me personally I choose to trust the good Doctor C.. he knows what he's doing.

[pandora]

Hi Miss Penelope

I read your post yesterday but i hesitated before replying. I agree with all the others on here but can also see your point of view! What a dilemna! SMS has covered the vital hormone resetting very well and i feel that is the main reason for getting closer to doc cohens goal. You see it is already progrmmed into your family genetics - i.e. you say you come from a "well built family"- that may mean the family has some sort of a "hormone IMBALANCE". Now you are the brave one in the family who has ventured out and found the cohen program which is no ordinary diet but one designed to fix hormone imbalance etc. Other doctors talk about resetting your SET POINT and that means unless you get within 5kg of your goal weight, it is almost inevitable we regain most or all the weight lost. Its something in that last 5kg that appears to do the "magic".

Now for a more specific example. My cohen goal was 52 - 55kg. I am 54 yrs old in July and 159cm so, like you, i thought - way too low doc but something in me was excited at the challenge! Also like you, my BMI top weight is 62kg. I got down to 49.1kg (TOO LOW but my choice) and kept around 40 - 53kg since goal Nov 07. Now, i have gained after EATING MORE and i am settled at 54kg but those 5 months of LOWER weight seem to have reset my metabolism and i expect remaining at 54kg (or below) to be effortless. I do look better having "gained" AND everyone now tells me i was actually "too thin" but look HEALTHY now and at least all the size 6 and 8 clothes still fit!

Bit of a rave but, bottom line, there does seem to be some confusion between different clinics and their refeed guidelines. I know one lady on the forum here who only lost 3kg of 14kg total by end of contract and still got her refeed! She finally got to her goal 2 years AFTERWARDS and having her refeed (as she had paid the $700 etc) she was able to complete the program, albeit late. Now that could be the best outcome for you. Let us know your thoughts after all our "well meaning" advice! Panddora

[meagain]

Wow, Miss P,

You have a few issues, they are yours, not Dr Cohen's. If you are happy with you weight, good for you. If you are healthy, fine. But don't vent about a program that has been extensively researched and worked so well for many others. (Wow, the thought that you are in a particular decade allows you to have an extra 10kgs really blew me away.I remember thinking thoughts like those when I was in my obesiac denial. I have to watch them now, go one one - or one ore won't hurt - you looked great at 70kgs, you were healthy... IFC tempting, always tempting..) You're also very angry that you have regained the weight, that it is not the clinic's fault, you must take responsibility for it. Anger always gives a filtered view, there may well have been many other issues and reasons you did not get to your goal, perhaps you need to consider those? You obviously felt deprived during the program, that was also your perception about the amount of food. It is hard to cope with men eyeing you off, woman seeing you as a threat, shop assistants noticing you and helping you, but it is all part of the Cohen's journey and I feel those are the things that you might have had issues with on the program.

I have graduated from the program, I thought my goal weight was too low - it's not. It's a healthy weight, it's in the middle of my BMI. I look and feel fantastic. It's a weight that lets me have a little fling with food now and then. Yes I got hungry - man crying and unable to concentrate hungry - before the end, but I had my main meal in the morning and I could cope.

Waist measurement and skin area are better measures of overweightness and obesity than BMIs. I believe that is why there is such an emphasis on measurement in the program. If you talk to a cardiologist they will tell you a woman's waist measurement should be 72cm to define her as a healthy weight, 80 is acceptable if the hip to waist ratio is 0.8 (80cm:100cm). You would find that 72cm puts you at the very bottom of your BMI and even below my Cohen's goal, I did not have a waist measurement of 72cm.

If you really want your refeed, request it, spend the two weeks studying and preparing and then do it. Ask another consultant if yours won't give it to you. You might have to just do your existing program again, and then pay for the refeed.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Andy46]

Firstly - lets keep positive with this post - so as to keep it within the spirit and good will of the New You Forum - which after all is just a forum and not a battle ground .......... and I mean that sincerely and would like every one to remember the rules of THIS forum as we post happily - ether way.

That said I too have about 12 kg to go after a loss of 56 kg - on this program - and just last week I started to get hungry and started to think that maybe my race was run - also at my last blood test my doctor started talking about diets etc - and he then weighed me and was somewhat surprised that I was actually the weight I was.
My doctors own visual perception and as with many others in my community - was that I was much much much lighter in k's than I actually am or was on that day - after my doctor weighed and then rechecked his charts re body weight and BMI he suddenly apologized and admitted he was wrong and that it was a perception thing and he was for many years so used to seeing me at a huge grossly obese weight with an BMI of 40 + for at least 10 years that now with my BMI at 28 and still classed as overweight with my range between 20 and 24 on a BMI chart that he was wrong - in his perception and advise. At least he told me - no one else will admit their mistakes after offering there honest advise whether in casual conversation or serious debate - people find it hard to say they got it wrong - and thats where I think this program startles people somewhat.

The program works and Dr Cohen has supplied us with a plan and has the scientific research to support his plan - the clinics provide advise and guided expertise to each client as they see the need - so if you don't like the advise - the long and short of it is - you are on your own really and it is at your decision and ultimately your way of dealing with it -and your responsibility - the result is your doing and yours alone.

I did seek some advise and a request to Dr Cohen for advise was sent and received by me via my clinic which is 900 kilometers east of my location - The return advise from Dr Cohen - "slow down" and stop my physicals activity (which was riding a horse for an hour a day) that has occurred due to the new mobility in my life.

Six months ago I could not get on a horse because of my weight and had not done so for a number of years - in doing so my hunger has abated considerably and I have again got my mind set around where and what I want to do - and yes I have five brothers and sisters all over weight who on one hand congratulate me and say how good I look and that I look so good - then within seconds say - 'But stop now - you have lost enough weight - we are big boned and solid framed ......... and it goes on and on" - but I think they are jealous of my achievement so far and it does show them up as failures - so it hurts them to see that it can be done if you knuckle in and do the program - my mother has for at least 40 years gone on about my weight - she started telling me I looked right at about 115 kg - well meaning but very very wrong - and she is my well meaning and loving Mum - but bottom line - I am an individual and the decision is mine and mine alone and I am the one who is responsible for that at the end of the day.

I also know that my weight of 72 kg is achievable as when I was 21 years of age and my fitness coach was Wayne BENNETT the football Coach of the Brisbane Broncos rugby league team - he was not satisfied with my weight until I was under 70 kg - and my bones have not grown since then - only my fat grew as I ate and ate - not my bones.

So Pen - please consider your options - if you need support the forum is here to offer you the best support in the world - and if you want do your own thing - so be it - but stay positive and happy with your life.

All the best

Andy

[Lonniecee]

Well I have to say I cringed a little when I read Penny's post yesterday and due to lack of time wasn't able to reply. I'm disappointed in some of the responses as I have met and spoken to Pen and know that she had only good things to say about her time on Cohens. Her sister also lost a good deal of weight with Cohens, so I have the advantage of knowing some family background and how committed to the programme she was/is. Thanks Andy for restoring some balance to the topic.

While I may not agree with all that you posted Pen, I don't believe that the programme was being criticised just perhaps the reluctance of the clinic to allow you to finish when you felt it was your time to do so. What I'd like to throw out there is .... if we feel that we are ready for refeed for whatever reason how is this different from someone who is going overseas or unable to complete the programme at that time but within 10kgs and plans to recommence the plan in the future? This has come up from time to time in some posts and we are supportive and can 'see' the sense in this for them at that time and they have received the refeed part of the programme. Had she received her refeed upon request (and I am neither defending or criticising her or the clinic) what is the chance that she may have at a future date restarted and completed the plan at a lower weight. We won't know this but the support she may have been given by the clinic and the forum might have seen her complete it.

Anyway my 2 cents worth.

Lauren

[Kannadew]

G'day!

I thought that the issue here was that the Clinic would NOT ALLOW Penny to even order her refeed at the point she decided she needed to start. My clinic allowed me to order my refeed at 70kgs even though my goal range is 62-65. I know that it is only 5kgs off the top of the range but still its above their suggested range. My holidays etc are the main reasons for ordering early and my consultant knows that I am planning to get back on if I need to after returning.

I was surprised that your clinic wouldnt allow you to order refeed. If you...with discussions with your doctor etc, had decided that this was a good weight for you then surely you should be able to order the next step. I am so sorry for your experience with your clinic... as this is not my experience. I hope that you are able to get this situation sorted out soon.

Blessya
Kannadew

[asy]

The one BIG thing a lot of you seem to be totally missing the point with is that the refeed WILL NOT WORK unless your body reaches it's metabolic equilibrium. That point is being totally overlooked.

Whether the clinic "allows" you to have the refeed prior or not is entirely irrelevant. If Penelope did her refeed now, at 10 or more K's over her goal weight she may as well not bother. It won't work. It will be as if she never did it, and she'll find herself back where she was.

There's nothing Consumer Affairs can do about that. Promise.

And allowing people to just get their refeeds whenever they feel like quitting seems to be a ridiculous way to run a programme. Can you imagine all the people going around saying "I finished the programme, and did the refeed, but I gained the weight again anyway", not giving credit to the fact that they threw in the towel FAR too early, didn't reach their metabolic equilibrium and finish properly.

And don't forget the contract you signed says that the refeed will not be provided until you are within 2kg of the goal weight set by Dr Cohen.

So yeah, it probably is frustrating to you, but there ya have it.

asy.

[meagain]

Originally Posted by asy

And don't forget the contract you signed says that the refeed will not be provided until you are within 2kg of the goal weight set by Dr Cohen.

Asy, I totally forgot about that!

[Lonniecee]

Thanks for that reminder Asy, sanity prevails.

Lauren