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  #1  
Old 10-06-2008, 07:56
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Default Any help would be sooo appreciated

I was holding myself back the whole day from posting this question... I dont wanna be annoying but I really dont know what to do...

This is my 12 week on the diet, I lost 15.9 kg total and am feeling very very good 1 kg under the target weight. (my weight today is 51 kg)

My every day is very active and I was tired in the last few weeks. This is the first week off, actually first 2 days.
I was planning to start refeed, as I was getting tired and sleepless... but just in two days of off work I feel so good again.

I am not tired,
I am not hungry AT ALL (I have been hungry all 3 months of the diet and now that I'm waiting for the hunger to start refeed I am not even as hungry as I was before?)
I have LOTS of energy
I sleep better
And I really dont feel I should start the refeed.

But my problem is, that I will have to fly to Europe in the end of the month and that will be very stressful - travelling, exam, travelling back... and then coming back to again very heavy work.
If I start the refeed in next few days I will be done with it by the time I would fly out. If not, I might end up starting the refeed some time during the travel or hard work...so I am sooo confused now about what to do...

I read as many refeed diaries and experiences as possible and a lot of people regreted to start refeed too soon (preassured by clinics, mostly) and went back to the original diet after the refeed. I would surely like to avoid that.

But - that might even be my only solution - start refeed and do it properly now - because I have 2 easy weeks coming and as far as I know the refeed is so very important to do right... see what my weight does... (I just don't feel ready for refeed yet???) and if I wont be happy in the end, go back on the original diet? But then what, do the refeed all over again?

Any help would be highly appreciated... I really wish now that my consultant would be a little more informative when I was asking about the diet and refeed in the beginning of the diet as they shut me up by saying - deal with the diet now, refeed when it comes... in my situation is now a little hard....

So, guys, I am really sorry for bothering with this refeed questions, it's just I tried to get infos everywhere and still dont know what to do... thank You all...
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:30
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Hiya Maya...

Great questions

Do NOT start refeed before you are hungry. Regardless of whether you have exams or whatever else. There will ALWAYS be something that is inconvenient standing in the way of a clear run for your refeed.

If you TRULY can't do your refeed while you are doing exams (which would be understandable) then stay on programme until you finish exams, even if you get hungry and are ready.

IF you do get hungry, add a piece of fruit and 2 crackers per day to tide you over until you get past the exam and THEN do your refeed.

And whilst you are right, the refeed IS very important to get right, it's EQUALLY as important for your body to be ready for it, otherwise it's wasting your effort.

Trust me. I know.

asy.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:56
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Oh, my God, asy, thank you soooo sooooo much for this answer! Thank You!
I dont know why I have a feeling the clinics wants us to rush into the refeed... Even Katrin said she was sorry she listened to them when saying she should do it as she felt it wasnt time yet... and many others.
Thank You SO much! I will, I will listen to my body. I feel so good now, yes, tired a little from all the work, but I feel so healthy and good and the weight is still dropping...and you are right, after all, even travelling is so much easier with the original diet than refeed when you have to weigh yourself every day and how can you know if some weightgain might be from water retention from the flights&...

Thank YOU SOOOO SOOOO MUCH!!!!! You made my whole day, thank YoU!!!
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:13
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Very interesting opinions. In view of the fact that I didn't wait for "hunger" to set in before starting refeed, I thought I'd give both the original and refeed programs a thorough going over tonight.

The only thing that I could find was the constant reminder that WHEN you reached within 2kg of your target weight, which should have been somewhere between the high and low range of your ideal weight according to the program, you should order refeed. Nowhere in either of my programs could I find any reference to "waiting" for hunger to hit. I do know that "IF" hunger hits bad then the clinic should be notified and refeed possibly started early.

Can Asy or anybody give me a definite clarification on this? I was never told by the clinic to continue to lose weight UNTIL I experienced "Hunger".

???
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:23
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My understanding from my consultant was the same as yours, SMS. Refeed somewhere in the Cohen range (actually, my consultant gave me a goal weight which is slightly higher than the calculator range) or earlier if I get hungry.

AJ
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:03
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OK, so I'm not the only one confused here...

See, I heard so much about that hormonal equillibrium that we have to come to, which happens at your ideal weight WHICH DOESNT HAVE TO BE THE ONE dr.COHEN SUGGESTED (my consultant wrote that many times), she wrote that I will feel it and KNOW it when I'm ready.

But if we DONT rich the hormonal equillibrium, where hormones work normal again, then we get have those ups and down on the refeed again and struggle with the weight more than if we get to that "reset" of hormones.

So, I dont wanna be super skinny or anorexic, no no, actually, if I tell you the truth, I am still wearing kind of long shirts and not showing much of my skin, I am not so into skinny thing and certainly dont look too skiny yet, my legs still have some fat to lose, but if this IS the best weight, I am ready to stop...but I feel GOOD where I am right now and I am obviously still losing weight (51.0 kg yesterday, 50.7 kg today)... that's why I dont wanna start the refeed yet.

I still think it's better to maybe go 1 kg too low and get it back on on a refeed if the body shows its better that way, then starting too early and mess up again with diets after the refeed...

And when reading the refeed diaries, most of people got that horse hunger (even on other forums).

I know we are all different and I certainly dont wanna go into any extremes, but I do wanna rich my peace with hormones...
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundaymorningstaple View Post
Can Asy or anybody give me a definite clarification on this? I was never told by the clinic to continue to lose weight UNTIL I experienced "Hunger".
Yup, sure can...

The whole idea of the goal weight is that your body must hit it's metabolic equilibrium, and Dr Cohen's 'goal weight' is where 'most' people experience this equilibrium.

The truest telltale sign of this point is that your body is no longer able to cope with the small quantity of food, as it (your body) feels it's lost enough fat and gets to a point where it starts to panic and if you start to introduce foods in the right manner and the right time your body says 'oooh, it's OK, I don't have to panic, I can live happily on what I'm getting. If you don't feed it more (controlled, and the right way) then it panics and goes into 'starvation mode'. This is when it starts to turn everything into fat. Sort of like a plant going into flower in a drought as a panic measure to have one last shot at producing seed before it dies.

Now, that point at which your body says 'Aaaargh, I can't cope on this amount of food anymore" is that metabolic equilibrium. If you don't wait until that point your body is still in 'fat burning mode' and it takes this extra food as storage. Even if it doesn't show immediately as added weight, it'll mean your body won't stabilise to the maximum possible effect.

This is why I'm SO vehement in my comments about starting refeed to early. It doesn't really matter what your weight is. The goal weight is really a 'guide', however, If you ARE more than about that 2kg over your top weight (unless you've lost more than about 60kg (see below)), then it's VERY unlikely your body is ready. The bottom of the range is similarly a guide. If your body isn't ready until a kg or two or three under the range, then so be it. That's fine. There's NO way you'll get "TOO THIN". Not if you listen to your body, aren't deviating and are honest about your hunger levels.

My comment regarding the loss of huge amounts of weight is that I am still of the belief that if you've lost over that 60-70kg mark you will still be carrying some extra skin. It's unavoidale. Now, I know that my skin was never saggy and I never ended up with a 'skirt' as such, but there IS still some loose skin, which is tightening up all the time. But, I still believe that the goal weight should be a little more lenient at the top end for some people who have lost that huge amount. STILL, this should NEVER overwrite the main tenet of hunger.

I know that the Brisbane Clinic sends out a letter with the refeed advising people NOT to start it until they feel really hungry and if in doubt to ring the clinic. Even if you HAVE the refeed, and it's been ordered when you hit your goal weight you should NOT start until you are HUNGRY. Not just once, but two or three days in a row, waking up SO hungry that the cat's not safe!

You should be eyeing off small children in prams at the supermarket wondering which sauce goes best. You should be gnawing at furniture in the morning when you get up.

Usually you will be that screamingly hungry in the morning. During the day, you should be OK for the first 3 or so hours after a meal, but instead of getting peckish at about hour 4 or 4.5, you will feel real hunger at about hour 3.

I know I did my refeed too early. I know I never really got quite hungry enough, (yes, I was hungrier than usual, but I don't think it was enough) and I know that this is what's caused me to struggle with maintaining my weight, to the point that I'm back on the programme and will redo my refeed when I hit that equilibrium. I know that I've spoken with people who have done the refeed at the RIGHT time, and they have had FAR fewer problems with maintenance than those who started too soon.

One comment with regard to clinics suggesting people start refeed 'at goal weight' is that I think some consultants don't quite understand the imperative nature of really reaching that metabolic equilibrium, and in addition to that, they've seen people 'get sick of the programme' and simply not bother with the refeed, so I believe they think it's better to let people do the refeed than walk away. I'm quite the contrarian with respect to that. I'd rather people walk away and just get maintenance guidelines. Surely after doing all the work losing the bulk of the weight it won't kill people to do that last 5%!!! Especially if it means the difference between success and failure!

Anyway, hopefully that explains it and at 1.30am it's not too much rambling. I'm going to bed now.

asy.

Note: Cross posted with Maya, but I think I've answered her comments anyway
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2008, 03:07
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Allelluya, asy!!!

THANK YOU!!!!!

It is SOOOO much more clear now and I have a new plan that will be even better than I could imagine!!!


GOD BLESS YOU, ASY!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:01
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Excellent post, Asy! And Maya, thanks for reading my thoughts on it in my diary. I still think I stopped too early, and whilst I have maintained my post re-feed weight more or less (probably in half a year it rose by about 800 gr as the monthly average, which is good), I have never managed to get rid of that last bit I was and still am unhappy about, about 2 kilos.

Whilst I was in the grove, it would have been so much easier to loose those last 2 kilos, whilst all attempts afterwards have ben unsuccessful, just too hard, and hence also slightly depressing, as I am wondering why I just can't commit for another few weeks.

So keep on going, Maya
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:07
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Oh, my God, this is You, Katrin?

I have been reading everything you wrote (almost) since the beginning - I found you so interesting, german woman living in Australia, I could connect with you so much!!!!!
Just wanted to thank you for posting everything you do!!!

Reading your posts made me rethink twice about the refeed because you really found so much sense, you had a great consultant with LOTS of knowledge (I wanna send my consultant to yours!) and thanks again for writing this!!!!!

You trully are inspiration!!!!
P.S. that article about workout and hunger is great!!!!
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:19
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Hi Asy,

That is really interesting about hunger. I wasn't hungry at all when I started refeed and was near my lower end goal weight. My consultant ordered my refeed when I was two kilos from the higher end of my goal weight. So I had lost nearly 5kg between when she ordered refeed and when I started refeed.

I wasn't hungry when I started refeed but felt and I think, looked really skinny. I didn't want to get below 56kg ( the lowest Cohen goal weight) so I started refeed.

I suppose one of the beauties of this program is that you can go back on the original plan to get to the metabolic equilibrium if you want.

I will see how I go in the next couple of months before I decided to take that course of action.

Cheers

Tuti
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:33
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Thanks, asy. That's much clearer. I was going to talk with my consultant about it next visit to try to clarify it, but don't think I need to do so now.

One thing you may be able to clarify a little more for me. I was hoping to finish before my son's wedding at the end of October, but now don't think I'll quite be there. I had discussed with my consultant the possibility of doing refeed if I was close to goal weight, then going back onto the diet after the wedding and losing the last little bit.

I was about to ask whether I should lose that last bit, then do refeed again, but I realise now what you answer will be, and that is, don't do the refeed at all until I feel the hunger.

Thanks,

AJ
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Started 11/1/08. Lowest weight reached 63.8 kgs on 10/11/08 and 40 kgs down. Thank you Dr Cohen.
Back again to do it all over again, starting from exactly the same weight as last time.
My health is not good and my doctor is predicting all sorts of nasty things if I don't lose weight.
What else do I do? I help people make money and I help people save money. Please take a look at http://www.acnlinks.clancie.com.au/
Back again for the support. Still think the diet and the forum are the best ever, but too old to do it again. Now losing again slowly on maintenance diet. Ticker shows next intermediate goal only (5 kilos).



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Old 11-06-2008, 23:34
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Thanks everyone for this really interesting discussion. I have another 4kgs to get to my goal weight and this is so insightful as to what to expect.
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Old 12-06-2008, 00:22
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I stopped off at our clinic this evening on the way home from work (to join their "Ambassador's" club rewards program). While I was there I also broached the subject about the hormonal balancing, hunger and refeed. Seems there is still some questions as to what constitutes hunger (or cravings in the case of deviations) and actually recognizing it for that. I was told that it has never been lose weight until you are hungry enough to eat a horse. I was told that occasionally when the massive hunger actually hit close to the 2kg away from target that it was a good idea to start refeed for the same reasons related by Asy last night. But they said that it wasn't a guideline of the program at all.

It would seem that the Consultant's were all trained in Australia as well as our clinic is actually a branch of that franchise (Both Aussie Blokes!).

While I don't doubt the veracity of what Asy said, I find is strange that my program says absolutely nothing about it. Do the Actual programs issued in Australia have this in them? I have to wonder why Dr. Cohen would say it for one country and not for the other.

Well, with only 5 days left of refeed I'll guess I'll find out soon enough.....
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Old 13-06-2008, 13:50
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This is my first post on this forum - but it's really helped me on my journey so I thought I'd contribute my 10c worth. I've got 3 days of refeed left to go!

Refeed is a little tricky and one of the requirements is that you must not have had a deviation or cheat for 7 to 10 days before you start it. If you always stick to the program then that won't be an issue for you, but it can be a little tricky when travelling.

Remember also that while you are doing your exams and traveling you will continue to lose weight if you stay on the program - just watch you don't go too far below your goal.

As to the "when you are hungry" discussion: I haven't been hungry at all on Cohen's. Maybe I've just been lucky! I started re-feed 2 kg above my goal for health reasons (low blood pressure, tiredness) after my clinic contacted Dr C. I'm happy to say I've now lost another 1.5kg even though the food size has doubled!

Work out your timing - and do what is best for you. Importantly remember not to have a deviation for those 7 - 10 days before starting refeed!
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Old 13-06-2008, 18:57
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Keepingitoff, thank You for your post!!! Of course every info is very helpful!!!

I think I have been just oposite from you - I have been hungry for last 3 months almost constantly. Very rare were the non hungry moments... Lucky you, but again, I had lot more to lose than you and as we realized with my consultant, my hormone was very stubborn to break down some fat...

As for deviation - so far I think I was deviation free whole 3 months. I did some heavy travelling and proud to say I stayed 100%. Now, what is 100% according to Australian and USA plan - that's another discussion, as I am trying take best from both, but I haven't had any not Cohen food or any bigger, smaller or out of timing food. The only deviation I made was stress myself too much sometimes.

I am NOT planning to deviate AT ALL, that's why all these questions, to really make sure I will stay on the plan, as right now nothing is more important than finishing it r-i-g-h-t.

Since I am still losing weight (slowly) and feeling good (I do wake up at 2, 3 am and can't go back to sleep, but my head is also working overtime about my trip and everything, so excited I can't even describe it...and right now I'm alone on the boat, have to check the ropes, fenders and weather every few hours anyway...So, nothing really wrong with that.)

Thank you all for such a great discussion!!!!
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Old 14-06-2008, 19:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya View Post
Oh, my God, this is You, Katrin?

P.S. that article about workout and hunger is great!!!!

I'm flattered! Thanks Maya and good luck!

Katrin
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  #18  
Old 15-06-2008, 05:19
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Thanks, Katrin!

Still not hungry...even less than before, actually..going through some stress from outside world...

Waiting for the signs... But I got an interesting answer from my consultant (They were wondering why I still didnt start the refeed and I told them I did some research and spoke to some women and decided to wait for the real signs...)

Why it is so difficult to tell you when to start your refeeding, is
because we do not know exactely what your body build is like. Whether you
still carry enough fat to stay on the program longer or are you trying
to go too low for your body structure and then may gain some weight
again on the refeeding.


So, waiting for the horse!
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