Additional Protein & Vegs concerns

[sundaymorningstaple]

Connie,

Be careful. My clinic told me that while we could split the new amounts between meals we had to split "BOTH" the proteins & vegetables in equal ratios. so if you were to have All your new proteins added to your breakfast you should also have added ALL your vegetables there as well. That why most recommend that you split the new quantities (after the first couple of days) when they start getting bigger across two meals as trying to add double the amount of protein and vegetables would get a bit much.

You might want to go back and reread you refeed program again.

From my program:

3. The additional quantities are per day (not per meal); therefore the additional can be added to one meal per day or spread across the day. Always split proteins and vegetables in the same proportions in the same meals.

The blue italics are mine, the words are Dr. Cohen's.......

[Maya]

SMS, that is interesting...not a word about it in refeed guide we got. It only says amount of new and old protein we add?
I did try to add same amounts to 2nd and 3rd meal, never to breakfast, though...and my consultant had no comments about that...

[janine]

Thanks Sundaymorningstaple but I have gone back to my programme and checked again. Mine says:

"The additional quantities are per day (not per meal); therefore the additional can be added to one meal per day or spread across the three meals for the day."

It doesn't mention anything about a ratio between protein and vegies. Maybe it is one of those international clinic differences that I see crop up in the forum a few times.

I always seem to be reading the refeed programme 3 times a day and no doubt will still miss something!

Will be interesting to see if anybody else has feedback on this.

[ConnieK..]

Hey SMS,

mine is like janines

The additional quantities are per day (not per meal); therefore the additional can be added to one meal per day or spread across the day.

Checked with my clinic, they said only suggestion is don't add all of everything to one meal .. ie. don't add all your vegies and all your protein to one meal ( I never have ) but apart from that split it up however you like. I usually add half vegies to lunch and half to dinner, and split protein over these two meals if I have yoghurt for breakfast, if I have egg for breakfast I will divide the protein and veg pretty much across all three meals .. seems to be working for me.

Connie

[sundaymorningstaple]

As long as you add the protein & vegs together in the same ratio (as the total is) to both meals. If I gave you 10kg of cauliflower & 8kg of steak and told you you could spit it between two meals for a group of people eating lunch and dinner then you could give one meal 5kg of cauliflower & 4 kg of meat and the same for the other but you couldn't give 8kg of cauliflower & 2 kg of meat to one meal and the balance to the other as the ratios are not the same.

If one were to look at it logically, as your main program is set up based on balances, e.g., x grams of protein with x grams of vegetables and the refeed program is adding y grams of protein with y grams of vegetables and if you were to split them, it would make sense to have to split them in the same ratios. If not, then the balancing between food groups wouldn't be there and that will be a deviation from what is been happening. The refeed is designed to help you to start having larger quantities as well as adding different foods in set controled quantities so as not to upset the balance of the program.

However, anybody who wants to throw logic out the window is welcome to do so but I liken it to the same thing Andy says occasionally, if it isn't on the program it isn't allowed. We are not allowed to change the ratio of quantities in the basic program by switching the vegetable amounts between anywhere we would like so why would the refeed program be any different?

Anyway, that's how read it, and also how I did it. My clinic supports my view but again, it would seem that countries have different rules ?!? Who am I to say....... I just try to use logic.

[ConnieK..]

now see ... as the Hitchhikers Guide once said ... "and God disappears in a puff of logic"




The clinics giving different advice thing is pretty annoying ...... but we can't change it so I guess we have to go with what we are told.

I will be more aware of the ratio theory from now on.... Saturday was the only day I didn't divide the protein and veg evenly between lunch and dinner.... having got the idea of steak and eggs for breakfast from Shell in the refeed section.

Sorry for hijacking your diary Janine

Connie

[janine]

No probs Connie. An interesting discussion but a bit late for me with only a week to go and no doubt you are nearly finished!

I am putting the question directly to my clinic as I find the different clinics/countries different advice thing very annoying too.

I'm now starting to think about maintenance - oh yah, oh yah, oh yah, oh yah!

[Maya]

Hey guys!

SMS, I understand your logic...but again - honestly, I dont think this same rations has huge influence...I think in the end now it's more about how much food and when... Because you can add some to cheese, some to egg, some to chicken...the ratios are already different from the beginning - my allowance is so much different than someone elses...my consultant never mentioned about the same ratios...they even said that if I want a fuller meal I should add MORE veggies to it...

But again - who am I - just a woman that doenst like logic all the time (cuz her dad forced her to be LOGIC her whole life!)

No, seriously - I think it's more about the quantity in the end.

I have 2 days to go... my weight in the beginning of the refeed was 48.6, today was 48.7...

Actually to be honest, I have a feeling that those that have NOT been complicating so much through the whole diet and the refeed...are doing also very good after the diet... People that have been too precize and obsessed with each gram, are having problems with it now, too... So, I reallz wanna relax a little, anyway.

Last night I had a small breakdown.
I have had enough of this diet. I am soooo tired of this food, of this measuring... yes, I am still hungry and damn yes I wish to finally eat like a normal person without all this gram accurate measuring. I know, I know just 2 days left...maybe I'm just tired...

But anyway - sorry Janine, now I took your space (not much visitors in my diary lately..nothing new anyway, just bothering with questions...)...Janine and Connie, how much bread are you planning to keep having a day on the maintnence?
have fun finishing refeed and then - FREEDOM!!!!!!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Originally Posted by Maya

Actually to be honest, I have a feeling that those that have NOT been complicating so much through the whole diet and the refeed...are doing also very good after the diet... People that have been too precize and obsessed with each gram, are having problems with it now, too... So, I reallz wanna relax a little, anyway.

Maya, like you I did the entire program 100% to the letter. I did refeed to the letter eating absolutely everything offered (and yes, toward the end it was a struggle as I had a huge fruit allowance to start with and I kept eating that as well (5 fruits a day!).

I'm 28 days post refeed now and the maximum I've fluctuated is only 1.5 kg. I'm not hungry, I eat healthily and have lots of biscuits as about half to 2/3's of the fruit I was eating on the plan. I'm not weighing anything. I have absolutely no problems at all and I am relaxed as well and so happen sitting on 150-151 lbs (68-68.5kg) without trying. As somebody said the other day, the ones who are generally successful are not on the forum as they don't have issues. They probably read the program correctly and followed it correctly and are now getting on with their new lives. I'm here because I enjoy helping people. If, I, like Asy, Baloo, Faithy, Koh or Andy, can help one person then my staying on here is worth the time it consumes everyday. There are lots of us out there who don't have problems. And we were "Obsessed" with the program, we were just following it the way it was meant to be followed.

Thanks Sundaymorningstaple but I have gone back to my programme and checked again. Mine says:

"The additional quantities are per day (not per meal); therefore the additional can be added to one meal per day or spread across the three meals for the day."

Mine does likewise. But with the second sentence that I highlighted in blue. I think the reason that has been added here in Singapore is because the "Locals" are totally lacking in common sense so they have had to spell it out for them. There are lots of things in my program that are worded so that the average intelligent person would think "why did they bother to say that?" But if you lived here as long as I have you would understand it completely! If you think I'm kidding just ask Baloo!

Also, In the General Section of the Rules during the 'Refeeding' I have the following as #1 & #2:

1. 'Refeeding' is an extension of your original program. Therefore, the rules you followed while you were on the program are still valid, unless specifically changed by the 'Refeeding' program

2. As with the original prescribed program you must continue to weight your protein and vegetables portions accurately, incorporating the increases as specified in the "Refeeding;. No deviation is allowed. As before, your food is your medicine and must be taken as prescribed - no more and no less.

The blue highlights are mine, the words are the programs'.

While I know this information is too late for you or Maya, I spend the time for those who follow. Hopefully, it may either cause them to question the clinics for clarification or not have some of the potential problems that I am seeing here.

sms

[janine]

Hi SMS

My Rules during the Refeed Programme rules begin exactly as you have written above for no. 1 and no. 2.

Then my Following your Refeeding Program guidelines have as no. 3:

"The additional quantities are per day (not per meal); therefore the additional can be added to one meal per day or spread across the three meals for the day."

There is not the additional sentence that you have in yours. That seems to change meaning entirely between clinics/country. Very confusing.

[Maya]

SMS, I am sorry you are taking my posts so negatively... That certainly isnt my intention, please?!!?!?! or there must be sth lost in translation...

I dont know what I would DO without people like you, shell, Asy, Katrin... I am reading your diaries and learning so much!!!! NO NO NO; please dont understand me wrong!!!

I just wanted to say that lots of women that are complicating (I am not thinking about anyone up here) during the refeed are also having problems later. I never thought you complicated, I never thought you are devoting too much time here - thank God you are here!

As I am prone to " all or nothing " I have to be aware of that and not complicate too much for my own good or I will NEVER get off this food obsession which I wish soooo much!


As I believe hundreds of us on the internet program gets a program that is different from yours, from the clinics, with much lack of support (I even remembered yesterday while making lunch, that my consultant suggested me to have all the extra new protein with the breakfast and have yogurt and fruit as a desert - that's why I thought - well, these consultants MUST be trained differently everywhere, so if dr.Cohen is giving them those instructions, probably the adding protein to different meals in different rations can't matter much. Plus, if you take some protein off fish is already different than taking it from meat as they are already allowed in different amounts...

And I dont understand why you said it might be too late for Janine or me, I have still been adding everything in ratios, (just in case), I am still waiting 5 hours (and not a minute less!) between meals and still having EVERYTHING on the program. I actually realized I might have been getting hungrier because I had mozzarela last days (shells parma is just sooooo yumm!!!!!) - so I decided to have meat (lamb&...) as Janine suggested, from today on, because it is much easier to calculate and is really more filling.

Please, SMS, no bad feelings,because I AM REALLY GLAD FOR YOU to be here.

If I said anything wrong, I am apologizing big time. I had few really heavy days and as I am struggling through the last days, packing again to fly back to work, where who knows what is waiting for me and how I will be able to keep myself above the water - observing how Im handling my new life after Cohens.... I know I deeply appreciate everybody's presence and activity up here.

Janine, sorry to take this space from you, but I just can't go on with my day if I feel I might have hurt someone.

I wanna thank you for your worry and visit in my journal, too. You are right - I should eat more meat and less cheese and this is what i'm gonna do today. Yesterdays dinner really filled me up. I was also sleepless and we are finally having some rain - the low pressure and clouds were pushing us all down for days now. I took my mom to the massage yesterday and we both enjoyed so much - I realized my body still didnt recover much from the whole exam, travel,...thing. I enjoyed it sooo much and it really fulfilled me more than any food could. I did exactly what you suggested - went for a walk with ipod.

Thank You!

I also decided to have a banana as a bad fruit and not a small fig - eventhough they are soooo divinely good.

How much longer refeed for you? I have two more days, today and tomorrow I have same amounts of everything. Yesterday was nice adding a cookie. I loved it with my coffee.

And how is your weight? Mine went up 200 g from yesterday...hopefully would stay here or go down (faithfull wish) tomorrow...

Thank you Janine and please, SMS, if you're still up here, forgive me.

[sundaymorningstaple]

First of all, I'm glad you are back UP again Maya. Depressions are the pits....

And to help keep you Up........

Gals, you both are reading me entirely wrong I guess.

I don't take anything negatively. I see problems with the way the diet is administered world wide. You have spent half of you trip wondering why or which way to interpret things due to you being on the US website and getting info there (I'm registered there but have never posted) and then getting different viewpoints here so you ended up stressing yourself. You are still stressing yourself. Half of your problems are/were probably caused by these same stresses of wanting to do it "properly" but with conflicting sources of information. It's no wonder you're stressed.

I just tell it the way I see it. I'm not highly educated (not being condensing here just a statement of fact) - I'm an ole farmboy with a high school education and 30 years or so of traipsing around the world on my wits. I never was much for tact so if I have come across fairly harsh, I apologize. That has never been my intention. I just tend to call a spade a spade.

I read these threads and I see thing from a different point of view (just like my experiments with my self). I try to look at things objectively and form my opinions the same way. Sorry if I don't have a habit of commiserating but I usually spend my time looking for solutions instead. Making sense of the programs and trying to logically figure out the reasons behind the differences (if, in fact, there are any differences) is what I am trying to do albeit without personal feelings as I didn't have any problems understanding what I had been given as it was spelled out very logically and clearly. I personally think it's more the way individual consultant's (or franchise holder, as the case may be) interpret the data given to them by Doctor Cohen and them putting their own slant/interpretation on it before actually typing out the programs and giving it to us. (paraphrasing)

Most of what I've seen when problems arise due to hunger/slow losses/cravings are usually related to something that is either emotional (outside the scope of the diet itself) or interpretational (the program). These (the latter) are the ones that I'm interested in specifically and how to avoid them if possible. Of course there are those with true obesity syndrome and other medical conditions as well but that is a different issue than the weightloss program itself.

When I say it's too late for you and Janine it's only because you are already half way through refeed and Janine is splitting according to her consultants recommendations. I am not here trying to change anybody's mind or the way they are doing it. That's entirely up to them. I definitely don't want to try to change somebody's mind and then they stress themselves out over it because "I" convinced them to do it differently. I'm just trying to logically work out the way it was supposed to be done (trying to read the good Doctor's mind as it were). And, if I'm lucky, leave a trail for the next person.

No worry's, life's too short to have bad feelings. I sure don't have any. I personally get a momentary twinge of sadness when I read something that I know could be avoided, but that's life...... I not going anywhere though.....

Where's Connie.......

now see ... as the Hitchhikers Guide once said ... "and God disappears in a puff of logic"

That probably explains why I've been an agnostic since 1960........

My office is rather musty smelling today. All the carpets are going to take a while to dry out I guess.... Yuck! Had to order one new PC today as the other one couldn't swim too well. Somebody turned off the Aircon last night and it should have been left on to help remove the moisture that the water vacuums didn't remove.

It is a great day. Anytime your boss says order the PC that way you want it IS A GOOD DAY! However, I did refrain from replacing my twin 19" LCD monitors with new 22" Widescreen ones.

[janine]

Hi SMS and Maya

I don't take offence at any of this. If I have doubts I ask my consultant and they are the ones that I am taking notice of.

I use this forum to bounce around ideas and questions and to take advantage of the broad range of views out there and the hints that go with them. So all types of views appreciated. However, my consultant's word is final for me.

Just to add a bit of spice I got a reply from my consultant on this one and she said:

"If you can split your new proteins and veggies in the same proportion that would be good. Sometimes it is a little difficult but try and do your best. The Refeeding is quite complex isn’t it? Good to see that you take it very serious and want to follow it 100%. "

Since it wasn't spelled out clearly in my instructions and my consultant indicates that it is not essential, I will take it as desirable (but mainly too late to know about it - 6 days to go) but not essential. I have been largely doing it anyway in the interest of fairly spreading the load.

Having said all of that, I can't even remember how this arose in my diary now. However, other people might be interested in the ratio debate. SMS would you be able to remove it from my diary and start a new thread on it without removing any of my personal info?? I'm assuming that you have to have an Administrator role to do this. Thanks.

[Annabelle Joy]

There are lots of things in my program that are worded so that the average intelligent person would think "why did they bother to say that?" But if you lived here as long as I have you would understand it completely!

Believe me, SMS, that problem is not restricted to Singapore, although I will concede that it is probably more prevalent there.

At first I thought that what you said (SMS) was entirely logical. Then as it became apparent that it was only written in Singaporean programmes I wondered why, because it clearly was not obvious to the majority of others. It occurs to me that it may actually be desirable not to be restricted to keeping the proportions the same when split across meals, as in maintenance proportions won't be following the Cohen formulae. By moving protein and vegetables around in different proportions we will be getting used to the ways we will handle protein and vegetable proportions in maintenance.

I'm with you, Janine, I follow my consultant's advice. However, when I get to refeed I will certainly ask her about this.

SMS, you are definitely an ISTJ.

AJ

[Maya]

I wrote some of the instructions that are TOTALLY different from Australians (they are americans I guess....) - but since I got into my life again, I posted them in my diary...

I am just really dissapointed the lack of sinchronized instructions on this diet as I am confused more than before...

[Cheral]

I have spent time this afternoon creating a menu for my refeed. Am I right SMS in thinking you are saying that if we, for example have 100gms added meat and 100 added vegs for the day, then you suggest adding 50 of each to lunch and then 50 at the evening meal.

Thats how I have worked my menu, made sense once we get up to the larger additional quantities to balance it out, the first couple of days when only small qtys are added I have put that towards the evening meal, because right now, thats the time I am more hungry.

I was going to start my refeed next week, but feeling quite excited about it now, so think I will shop tomorrow and start Friday.

Now to find some blueberries in the shops !!

[Faithy]

Hope you guys dont mind me adding in here .. I did that Cheral.. I think it keeps it simple & easy then.. less confusion.. I pretty much kept breakfast as basic to plan as possible most of the way through, in fact I think all the way through.. oh except for one occasion, I had lamb with yoghurt.. not mixed together though LOL.. & I just felt so gross.. so I didn't do that again.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Cheral,

Yes, that's exactly what I did. Thereby, at no time was I overly "STUFFED" but ensuring I ate all that was given during the process (including all my "extras" allowed during phase one). But I was "full" most all of the time but never uncomfortable. The first couple of day when the new quantities were introduced I put 'em on one meal but before the end of the first week (actually about day 5) I split 'em between Meal 2 and Meal 3 in equal quantities & ratios.

AJ,

You almost had me going there, then I came to realize that what you wrote lends even more credence to what I was saying. The other programs don't say anything "because of a larger prevalence of common sense" therefore, conversely, in Singapore where common sense is not so common, the good Doctor had to spell it out for them. So, by that reckoning, It would seem that the additional admonishments (or greater detail - however you want to look at it) in our programs should then be the more correct ones.

Yeah, I have to admit I'm definitely ISTJ and always have been. But I do occasionally like to bust the mold and go outside my basic nature occasionally. Actually, I think that's just one of my alter-egos manifesting itself when I'm not paying attention.

Faithy,

It's about time!

[Annabelle Joy]

I'm also ISTJ, SMS, so I recognise the signs. We are the ones least likely to put on weight (didn't apply to me ), and the best at dieting. We follow the rules and listen to authority. We're also likely to say what we think without thinking of how it might sound to others. I frequently make changes after I read back and before I post. Sometimes I post too quickly.

AJ

[sundaymorningstaple]

Yep! I hear that!